Weight among elite players

[Tylerbob]

This is my first attempt at a new thread, so please be gentle. A saw a post recently where a top player wanted 8-7 in a match against Tony Chohan. That got me wondering about how much of a factor one ball would be in a long match between two top players, like the upcoming match between Corey and Danny.

It seems to me that modern elite players rarely get to the old school end game, fighting over the last ball on the table. The run out game dominates. I am thinking that it might make a difference in 2 or 3 games in a race to 30 (maybe 50 total games) between two elite players. Am I somewhere close?

 

[unoperro]

If they are playing long enough the psychological may come into effect.
Giving weight realizes he should be playing even.
Or getting weight figures i cant beat this go without more weight.
Or the weight can make either more confident.

Think Frost was in a video match and said hell I am so used to going to 12,13,15 ,or whatever that only going to 8 feels like a spot!

Good first post. Guys can be a little rough. Just remember if it feels like they are using chunky peanutbutter for lube, at least they cared enough to lube

 

[gulfportdoc]

Good question, Tylerbob. I've often wondered about that myself.

I'm hoping that Cardone jumps in here with his insights. My guess is that it's mostly psychological, as Unopero suggested. It also may be an enticement. One guy may not believe he'd have a chance against one of the heavy-hitters, but with a small spot, he might figure he could beat him.

~Doc

 

[androd]

Put enough weight on a shark, he'll finally fail to surface.

 

[El Chapo]

I think the ball is worth more than you are estimating. To be in the one hole one ball sooner will be so big in many games I would think. It equates to about 15% less balls to run. It is not so much just about games that go down to the last ball or two, but moreso every time the player getting weight is getting in the one hole faster can have a dramatic impact on the game. And I totally agree spots are psychological advantages in many cases, not always as we saw with efren giving weight.

 

[Henry]

I know many will not agree with me but I doubt anyone on this post has given weight as much as I have. Most of my big wins have come from giving weight and the mental part of giving and getting weight is not well known. I think if a champion gives another champion 1 ball 8/7 I think the one giving up the weight has the advantage mentally because they have agreed who the best player is. I believe that was a factor in the Alex, Justin match. I think Justin played like Alex was the best player. In that pool hall on that table Justin is at least equal to Alex or better as his record shows. That is why I bet on Alex I really liked he was giving up weight.

 

[lll]

i hope dr. bill responds to this thread
scott frost played efren 8/7 (scott getting the weight) for a long time until dr. bill told him to play him even for i think the psychological reason you guys are speaking about
ie i am NOT CONCEDING YOU ARE BETTER THAN ME
icbw

 

[unoperro]

I used to play 9 ball with a guy who was a fair milkroute score. He maybe was the last 2 under me. When we gambled he couldnt win with the last 2,last 3, the 7 or the 8.
Give him what he wanted,the 7 and the 8, and he was a totally differant animal. He knew he should win and played jam up. So every session was a woofing match up. He liked his Absolute and some nights that allowed him to get careless. His shoulders would slump after a few games. He was wet toast.

 

[BRLongArm]

This is my first attempt at a new thread, so please be gentle. A saw a post recently where a top player wanted 8-7 in a match against Tony Chohan. That got me wondering about how much of a factor one ball would be in a long match between two top players, like the upcoming match between Corey and Danny.

It seems to me that modern elite players rarely get to the old school end game, fighting over the last ball on the table. The run out game dominates. I am thinking that it might make a difference in 2 or 3 games in a race to 30 (maybe 50 total games) between two elite players. Am I somewhere close?

When players know how to play with a spot, they'll force the game into situations where it favors them. You are used to seeing even games. When a spot is involved, the weaker player will often force an up table, grinding finish to protect himself. Believe me, 8-7 shows up with top players. Holding that player on 6 is much more difficult than it sounds.

 

[LSJohn]

This is my first attempt at a new thread, so please be gentle.

You ignorant S.O.B., can't you wait until you know how to do something to avoid wasting our time?

I've got three TV programs to get watched in the next 8 hours before bedtime.

 

[El Chapo]

It is sorta like thinking a game means nothing in sayna race to 9. It may not but if you play enough you grow to realize as the set progresses the game can be a huge factor through the match... eg score could be tied bt instead it is 8-7 going to 9. That is huge. Unless the score is completely lopsided, the game is going to most likely be a very big factor. Or what if you think about it in another sport and say the last 5 yards were extended end zone territory for one team in football. It is true it does not have to mean anything but i bet it would factor in almost every game.

 

[J.R.]

When players know how to play with a spot, they'll force the game into situations where it favors them. You are used to seeing even games. When a spot is involved, the weaker player will often force an up table, grinding finish to protect himself. Believe me, 8-7 shows up with top players. Holding that player on 6 is much more difficult than it sounds.

I believe any favorable psychological effect between two evenly matched players is always for the person receiving the spot. To believe otherwise loses out to common sense. In "BRLongArm's" on-point quote he defines all the reasons why an 8 to 7 spot would show up between top players.

 

[BRLongArm]

How many times have you seen a player running out, only to miss his winner and the opponent runs out? With top players, it happens a lot. Giving 8-7, the other player doesn't need the ball you hung up to win.

 

[beatle]

if you have mental problems with spots then you have mental problems. that shouldnt enter into anything. although unless you are playing someone weak in the mind like that. then you take advantage of it.

but balls mean less as the players get better and mean less also when you are much better than your opponent even if both of you arent top notch.

most weak players lose because they want to play and the better player doesnt realize how many balls he can really spot someone and still win easily. they dont get to win a lot of money because they are afraid to spot more.

 

[sappo]

My take on this is when 2 players are evenly matched, then 8-7 is very meaningful. its a 12.5% edge. However the key factor is if the 2 players are evenly matched. Example when Alex played Justin they were not evenly matched. Alex is a far superior player and in my opinion the 8-7 game was not enough to effect the outcome of their match. Keith

 

[LSJohn]

if you have mental problems with spots then you have mental problems. that shouldnt enter into anything.

I agree with you beatle. I think there's a lot more talk about the emotional aspects of sports than there is emotional impact, but even more important than that, there are always Monday morning quarterbacks attributing success or failure to emotions one way or the other when they are just guessing. Like Ronnie said, "Dumpin' and doggin' look just the same."

However, I heard that JHall's girlfriend was raggin' on him during the match. If that won't put you off your game nothing will.

All anyone has to do that thinks getting a spot makes them play worse is give up something the next time they play the guys they've been playing even.

 

[wincardona]

I think the ball is worth more than you are estimating. To be in the one hole one ball sooner will be so big in many games I would think. It equates to about 15% less balls to run. It is not so much just about games that go down to the last ball or two, but moreso every time the player getting weight is getting in the one hole faster can have a dramatic impact on the game. And I totally agree spots are psychological advantages in many cases, not always as we saw with efren giving weight.

Very well put. Even with top players a ball (8/7) is a huge spot and anyone that doesn't think so is only fooling themselves. Eddie Kelly couldn't beat Ronnie Allen playing even but when Ronnie gave Kelly 9/8 Kelly won just about every time they played that way. I watched Kelly beat Ronnie with 9/8, plus Kelly told me so many times that Ronnie couldn't give him 9/8.

I myself have felt the weight of giving up a ball (8/7) to players that played under me but the ball made it a very competitive game.

Smart players that are getting a ball know how to take advantage of the weight. When getting a ball in all games that are close in the score a smart player will put balls out of play maximizing the value of the ball. However, when playing even there is no need to put balls out of play because both players need the same amount of balls. By putting balls out of play many more games will be decided by one ball. Make sense?

Dr. Bill

 

[Miller]

I think the ball is worth more than you are estimating. To be in the one hole one ball sooner will be so big in many games I would think. It equates to about 15% less balls to run. It is not so much just about games that go down to the last ball or two, but moreso every time the player getting weight is getting in the one hole faster can have a dramatic impact on the game. And I totally agree spots are psychological advantages in many cases, not always as we saw with efren giving weight.

Very well put. Even with top players a ball (8/7) is a huge spot and anyone that doesn't think so is only fooling themselves. Eddie Kelly couldn't beat Ronnie Allen playing even but when Ronnie gave Kelly 9/8 Kelly won just about every time they played that way. I watched Kelly beat Ronnie with 9/8, plus Kelly told me so many times that Ronnie couldn't give him 9/8.

I myself have felt the weight of giving up a ball (8/7) to players that played under me but the ball made it a very competitive game.

Smart players that are getting a ball know how to take advantage of the weight. When getting a ball in all games that are close in the score a smart player will put balls out of play maximizing the value of the ball. However, when playing even there is no need to put balls out of play because both players need the same amount of balls. By putting balls out of play many more games will be decided by one ball. Make sense?

Dr. Bill

actually, it's 12.5%.....but who's counting....

yep. makes sense.

a ball is a ball, is a ball...…and whatnot.....

i understand and appreciate the reasoning -- but think there is always gonna be that intangible factor re the matchup/specific players.

imo, hard to give a quantitative - one size fits all - answer.

(but, speaking in generalities, i'll like the guy getting a ball)

 

[El Chapo]

actually, it's 12.5%.....but who's counting....

yep. makes sense.

a ball is a ball, is a ball...…and whatnot.....

i understand and appreciate the reasoning -- but think there is always gonna be that intangible factor re the matchup/specific players.

imo, hard to give a quantitative - one size fits all - answer.

(but, speaking in generalities, i'll like the guy getting a ball)

Thank you.

And I also agree with those that said psychological advantage goes to the one getting the spot. I suppose it could be different for every player, but for me when you are gearing up to play and there are nerves on both sides, it just feels comfortable knowing you will be permitted a bit more error, and uncomfortable on the other side of things.

 

[beatle]

well if you think the guy getting the spot has some extra advantage try going out and betting on whoever is getting spotted in a game.

then hit the atm to pay off your losses.