One Ball One Pocket

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

So, Whitey, I'll ask you inasmuch as you are trying to come up with a rule for the opening break shot. Here's my entry. Tell me what you think is wrong with it, or where it falls short.

"Player on the opening break shot must direct the OB to the opponents side of the table."

Darmoose,
I understand your thinking. The first thing that comes to mind that is wrong with your suggestion is that it directs the player where they have to break the ob to. It limits the creativity of the game. Just like in a regular game of OP, we can not tell a player how to break, and as we know there are numerous ways to break OP.
But,
We are trying to phrase what constitutes a legal safety break, by attempting to depict what is allowed and not allowed.
I think the criteria desired on the break is not to shoot towards your hole which should mean the ob can not end up near the hole or in the hole or in the jaws of the hole. But it seems we need to be more definitive.
So with that said, I hear those that are voicing to keep it simple. And I believe the final writing will end up pretty simple, and we are getting there.

Members,
John H. just brought up an interesting point; 'winner breaks', and others have voiced that it is a disadvantage to break. John was talking about starting with the cb froze to the head rail, which Steve is starting his rules with the cb behind the line.
But,
we need input on should the successive breaks be an alternate format, or winner break, or loser break, with BIH - BTL.
Also,
Our current initial draft of the new Official Rules have changed concerning the lag. It now states the winner of the lag - 'breaks'. In this game I can see where the winner of the lag should have option to break or pass it. Need input.

thanks guys, really good input!
Whitey

 

[BRLongArm]

John suggestion is good for pros but I have seen a lot of bad breaks with both balls Frozen and I think the average player would become frustrated with that difficult shot.

 

[one pocket guy]

While we are on the subject.
Can some of you guys that’s played this a lot put up some scenarios?

 

[NH Steve]

What I’ve tried to do here is get rules simply written so that they reflect how people seem to be playing, not invent a new game. So the rules themselves are simple 1-4, but below I’ve added further details if they turn out to be needed if players can’t just resolve things themselves — or to give TD’s tools to settle disputes.


One Ball One Pocket

An abbreviated form of One Pocket, beginning with just one object ball on the table.
1. Rules of play: Standard One Pocket rules apply unless otherwise specified below.
2. The Break: The game begins with ball in hand behind the head string and a single object ball frozen to the center of the foot cushion. The breaker chooses their pocket and begins with a defensive shot. ref. Legal Break
3. Scratch or foul: Penalty balls are spotted and handled as in standard One Pocket unless a predetermined limit is in place.
4. Winning the game: The first player to score their game ball wins, as long as any applicable scratch penalties have been paid.

Legal Break: The opening "break" must be a defensive shot. The ball cannot be cut, banked or kicked into or towards the breaker's own pocket on their opening shot. If the opening shot leaves the object ball within one diamond of the breaker's own pocket, the opponent has the option of accepting the balls as they lie and continuing play, or calling for a re-break. Repeated calls for a re-break may result in an official warning. Repeated calls for a re-break by the same player after a warning may result in the acting official declaring loss of game.

Optional Foul Limits: Instead of standard One Pocket Rule #3 above, the game may be kept short by limiting spotted balls for scratches or fouls. For example, playing "Sudden Death" would make any scratch or foul an immediate loss of game. Or one or more additional spotted balls may be allowed up to a predetermined limit.

Score Keeping: Unless the game is “Sudden Death”, prior to beginning play, the other 14 object balls are placed and used as needed as in a standard game with the score 7-7 to avoid scoring and foul limit disputes.

 

[darmoose]

Darmoose,
I understand your thinking. The first thing that comes to mind that is wrong with your suggestion is that it directs the player where they have to break the ob to. It limits the creativity of the game. Just like in a regular game of OP, we can not tell a player how to break, and as we know there are numerous ways to break OP.
But,
We are trying to phrase what constitutes a legal safety break, by attempting to depict what is allowed and not allowed.
I think the criteria desired on the break is not to shoot towards your hole which should mean the ob can not end up near the hole or in the hole or in the jaws of the hole. But it seems we need to be more definitive.
So with that said, I hear those that are voicing to keep it simple. And I believe the final writing will end up pretty simple, and we are getting there.

Members,
John H. just brought up an interesting point; 'winner breaks', and others have voiced that it is a disadvantage to break. John was talking about starting with the cb froze to the head rail, which Steve is starting his rules with the cb behind the line.
But,
we need input on should the successive breaks be an alternate format, or winner break, or loser break, with BIH - BTL.
Also,
Our current initial draft of the new Official Rules have changed concerning the lag. It now states the winner of the lag - 'breaks'. In this game I can see where the winner of the lag should have option to break or pass it. Need input.

thanks guys, really good input!
Whitey

so...this entire discussion is about directing how the break is to be played.......and perhaps whether the rules of this game need to follow our OP rules.

While I respect Steve's opinions, he wants to recreate this game to simulate the end game in OP which is not why it was invented, nor why it is played. It is not OP. All pool games have specific rules that apply only to that game, in spite of their similarity's with other games. This game can and should exist on it's own merits IMHO.

many on here think that OBOP is about one ball and one ball only.......as soon as you do something to put another ball on the table you have lost.

truth is, this game is played differently in various parts of the country and no one way is more legitimate than another, in spite of proclamations to the contrary.

the protestations regarding the "sudden death" aspect of this game, if played with only one ball, are missing the point.....there is as much to be learned from having to avoid a foul (maybe more) as with playing the game with all OP rules...

KISS (lol)...as I am typing this, Steve is adding more rules further complicating this game....

 

[darmoose]

Rules I would suggest .........KISS

1.Breaker from the kitchen must direct OB to opponents side of table (OB may stop anywhere).

2. Any foul is loss of game.

...that's all, folks.....

 

[lll]

I am in Houston getting ready for the seniors tournaments
yesterday I played for several hours with Mark Dimick a player from Oklahoma
after playing for a couple hours I asked him if he wanted to play some one ball onepocket
he said sure “how do you play”?
I gave Steve’s rules 123 above
number 4 didn’t need to be said
he said that’s how we play it in Oklahoma let’s go

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

so...this entire discussion is about directing how the break is to be played.......and perhaps whether the rules of this game need to follow our OP rules.

While I respect Steve's opinions, he wants to recreate this game to simulate the end game in OP which is not why it was invented, nor why it is played. It is not OP. All pool games have specific rules that apply only to that game, is spite of their similarity's with other games. This game can and should exist on it's own merits IMHO.

many on here think that OBOP is about one ball and one ball only.......as soon as you do something to put another ball on the table you have lost.

truth is, this game is played differently in various parts of the country and no one way is more legitimate than another, in spite of proclamations to the contrary.

the protestations regarding the "sudden death" aspect of this game, if played with only one ball, are missing the point.....there is as much to be learned from having to avoid a foul (maybe more) as with playing the game with all OP rules...

KISS (lol)...as I am typing this, Steve is adding more rules further complicating this game....

Darmoose,
Thus far Steve has avoided including other ways to play the game, and sticking to BIH-BTL, and how it is generally played. Whether he ventures into other ways to play this game, such as freezing the cb to the head rail w/ object ball froze to the foot rail, and then you are free to shoot at your pocket, and a foul is a loss of game, he has never indicated that he is going to go there.

But yes, there are a few different ways to play this game, and I think we are learning that and recognize that.
In my '68 BCA rule book, Game 9-Ball; it has how the basic game of 9-ball is played. Then, it has Option: and it lays out how Shoot - Out is played. So it is common to list Optional ways to play a game, even way back then. As we see in 5 Rack Ghost, there are 3 Options in how the break is played.
In this thread we are dealing with OB-OP w/ BIH-BTL. unless it opens up to include other optional ways to play the game, but I do not think it will go there.
thanks, Whitey

 

[darmoose]

Darmoose,
Thus far Steve has avoided including other ways to play the game, and sticking to BIH-BTL, and how it is generally played. Whether he ventures into other ways to play this game, such as freezing the cb to the head rail w/ object ball froze to the foot rail, and then you are free to shoot at your pocket, and a foul is a loss of game, he has never indicated that he is going to go there.

But yes, there are a few different ways to play this game, and I think we are learning that and recognize that.
In my '68 BCA rule book, Game 9-Ball; it has how the basic game of 9-ball is played. Then, it has Option: and it lays out how Shoot - Out is played. So it is common to list Optional ways to play a game, even way back then. As we see in 5 Rack Ghost, there are 3 Options in how the break is played.
In this thread we are dealing with OB-OP w/ BIH-BTL. unless it opens up to include other optional ways to play the game, but I do not think it will go there.
thanks, Whitey

Whitey,

I am not going to comment any further on this subject, except to say to you..........can you point to anything I have said that you think indicates I am talking about anything other than OBOP w/BIH-BTL......?....

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I am in Houston getting ready for the seniors tournaments
yesterday I played for several hours with Mark Dimick a player from Oklahoma
after playing for a couple hours I asked him if he wanted to play some one ball onepocket
he said sure “how do you play”?
I gave Steve’s rules 123 above
number 4 didn’t need to be said
he said that’s how we play it in Oklahoma let’s go

Hi Larry,
Did the winner of the lag or flip have option to break or pass. And did you find that it is an advantage to break or a disadvantage to break. How did you guys decide who breaks subsequent games.
Sounds like you had a great day, and a great guy to play!
Good luck in the tournament, and your other match ups!
Whitey

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Whitey,

I am not going to comment any further on this subject, except to say to you..........can you point to anything I have said that you think indicates I am talking about anything other than OBOP w/BIH-BTL......?....

Yes, OB-OP played with BIH-BTL does not, as close as I am learning, play by a foul is a loss of game, but plays by a foul you then spot up a ball from the table. But, Steve is listening and has put it in as an Option: a foul is a loss of game. So what you like is covered, and your input has been recognized by Steve!
thanks for the input, as always! Whitey

 

[lll]

Hi Larry,
Did the winner of the lag or flip have option to break or pass. And did you find that it is an advantage to break or a disadvantage to break. How did you guys decide who breaks subsequent games.
Sounds like you had a great day, and a great guy to play!
Good luck in the tournament, and your other match ups!
Whitey

Whitey has her option of the break I’ve never seen it where the winner of the flip or lag chose not to break
Just like in normal One Pocket
We played winner breaks just like normal One Pocket
To me the break is an advantage because you have control of the first shot
If your break is reasonable you do not leave him an easy offensive shot
I am not as experienced in playing the game as many members so their thoughts on whether it’s an advantage or disadvantage to break would have more value than mine
Thanks for the wishes of good luck
I will need it!!!!!

 

[darmoose]

Yes, OB-OP played with BIH-BTL does not, as close as I am learning, play by a foul is a loss of game, but plays by a foul you then spot up a ball from the table. But, Steve is listening and has put it in as an Option: a foul is a loss of game. So what you like is covered, and your input has been recognized by Steve!
thanks for the input, as always! Whitey

Forgive me for this additional post, but just to clarify for you............I have played this in Chicago, Baltimore, Florida, and have seen it played several times in Philadelphia, all by gamblers for money. I have never seen balls spotted, rather than foul is loss of game. I understand that in other places like California it is played differently. BIH-BTL has nothing to do with whether balls are spotted or not as you must know.

My point is simply that one way is just as legit as another way, and there is no prerequisite to conform this game to our OP rules, and no overwhelming benefit in doing so. What is being suggested is certainly not ...KISS conforming IMHO.

But, whatever.....as my granddaughter is fond of saying..... ....carry on.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Darmoose,
I went on line to research the game of OB-OP and there is not really that much that pops up. There is one written rule explaining the game. It is played with the cb froze to the head rail center diamond and ob froze to the foot rail center diamond. A foul is a loss of game. The players also base a match on playing to a set number of points, and not per game. I also found on AZB a forum on this, in which it has other ways to play the game, and it had SVB stating he plays to spot up balls from the table, as Steve's game rule suggest.

Steve, has now put up 3 initial game rule drafts, that he wants comments on. His last one might be pretty representative of what could be pretty close to what he finalizes. We'll see. But, as we now noticed Steve has placed a break criteria of 1 diamond away from scoring pocket, so this is in line with Doc's suggestion of setting some kind definitive distance from the breaker's scoring pocket.

I too ask questions and put up ideas, so not much different than your efforts and others, as I see them. thanks, Whitey

 

[gulfportdoc]

Sheldon, the answer to this and many of the questions about playing safe on the break is this - you place the cue ball directly opposite the object ball, froze in the rail. No way to play an offensive shot from here, and the standard break shot is to bank the object ball near the side pocket on your side. Sometimes you hit it too thin or double kiss, leaving a bank. This is why we played winner break, because breaking is a handicap.

I couldn't play the game that way. I can't see that far!...

 

[Ratamon]

Rules I would suggest .........KISS

1.Breaker from the kitchen must direct OB to opponents side of table (OB may stop anywhere).

2. Any foul is loss of game.

...that's all, folks.....

I don't like your rule no 1. It's not clear to me why I can't play a defensive shot with the ball ending up on my side of the table. Why does the break need to be a disadvantage in OBOP (contrary to the normal OP) ?

 

[darmoose]

I don't like your rule no 1. It's not clear to me why I can't play a defensive shot with the ball ending up on my side of the table. Why does the break need to be a disadvantage in OBOP (contrary to the normal OP) ?

To answer your question....it's for the same reason that Steve's rule requires you to get the OB above the second diamond.........because that is the rule.

If you read my suggested rule you will see that I clearly said the OB can end up anywhere (that includes your side), you just have to initially direct it to the opponents side. The reason for this is to keep anyone from playing an offensive shot on the break. As I have said a few times there is no offensive shot available to the breaker when this rule is applied, which seems to be the objective. No fuss no muss....but you don't have to like it, that's ok. I would just hope you would understand what it says... ..

P, S....do I presume you like rule no 2.?

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I watched Billy Thorpe and Chip Compton playing One Ball One Pocket at the California Billiard Club two years ago. No loss of game unless you made the ball in the opponents pocket without scratching. Never more than one object ball on the table at any given time and if you scratched or followed a ball in the opponents pocket that one ball came up. This is how I've seen the game played over the years and I think its the correct way to play. They were betting $300 a game so if the game took awhile it didn't matter too much. BTW, Billy came ahead one game after two hours.

Hi Baby Huey, how are you doing? I can see how Chip Compton can hang with Billy Thorpe, (DCC Champion) because of his excelled magnificence in the end game. I would like to see Billy Thorpe get into challenge matches, especially against Django, for they are currently trading off DCC OP Championships. Django is on top of his game, I wish he would capitalize in challenge matches before father time takes over!!!! You can set up some challenge matches at your place, for I believe your match play table plays excellent!
But,
I was reviewing the threads and this popped out for me. Can you clarify what break they played by.
Also, I recognize this as being a tuff grind end game. So if you fouled, of which they might not have, but on a foul did they play it like one pocket, whereas, when a ball is scored then it is spotted and the player's inning continues.

Excuse me, this is unlike normal OP, for only one ball is on the table, which means; in normal OP you continue shooting until you miss, and then spot up owed balls, and you can not do that when there is only one ball on the table. Please clarify further how they played. thank you!
Whitey

 

[BRLongArm]

Buffalo's is starting a handicap one ball one pocket tournament in about a week. Pros and short stops go to 3 games, intermediate players go to 2, beginners have to win 1 game. Double elimination, $20 entry fee. Also he's beginning a steak night on the night of the tournament. Should be a lot of fun.

 

[Ratamon]

To answer your question....it's for the same reason that Steve's rule requires you to get the OB above the second diamond.........because that is the rule.

If you read my suggested rule you will see that I clearly said the OB can end up anywhere (that includes your side), you just have to initially direct it to the opponents side. The reason for this is to keep anyone from playing an offensive shot on the break. As I have said a few times there is no offensive shot available to the breaker when this rule is applied, which seems to be the objective. No fuss no muss....but you don't have to like it, that's ok. I would just hope you would understand what it says... ..

P, S....do I presume you like rule no 2.?

Thanks for clarifying darmoose. The same outcome could be achieved by banking one rail towards my middle pocket which is an easier shot so perhaps Steve’s rule is less restrictive in that sense?

I have no problem with your rule no 2 (especially if the players’ preference is that there should only be one object ball on the table at all times (otherwise, a foul is not much of a penalty as per my earlier post).

Discussio mater veritas est