B. Hall vs. E. Reyes 2005 D.C.C.

wincardona

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I'm coming in very late to this discussion. I wanted to try out the 3 ball straight-back to see if it goes. It looked a little iffy to me from the angle. (positioning the 3ball is the shot)

At any rate, on the wet equipment at Skeeter's, the 3 ball cannot be banked straight-back from this angle because the 3 will not "turn" off the grabby cloth. I'm sure on a nice dry table like at DCC the shot could be made with much slower speed, because it will allow for the 3 to "turn" off the head rail. (The slower speed will preclude the ball from turning the induced english will wear off by the time it hits the top rail) If the CB were further toward the center of the table the shot probably could be made. (Again, the bank is supposed to be positioned..not made)

After banking at the 3 straight-back, the CB can be rolled to almost any spot in "The Kitchen", including right on top of the 6. ( controlling the cue ball ending up around the area of the 14ball is where you want to end up. The strength of the option is the cue ball utilizing both the 13ball and the 2ball as blockers to cover the banked 3ball. This is the strongest position to leave the cue ball in, think about it)

It also isn't that easy to bank the 3 straight-back even planning NOT to make it, because it wants to hit the deuce. If that happens, it could cause a sell out. ( You're hitting it too hard Art. there is no sell out. hit it better)

The 3-railer on the 3 is good no matter what, even though the shot is a little more difficult. A guy would have to hit it badly to cause a kiss. He'd also have to guard shooting it long, because if the 3 hit the balls on the spot there could definitely be a sell-out.

It sounds like we may never get the solution which Buddy chose. I looked through my DVDs, but I don't have that match. But, IMO, down 7-0, Buddy is going to do something aggressive here. He likes to shoot anyway, and since he's an excellent bank shot shooter, he's probably going to shoot the 3. (and he wants to win)

If the 6 is not on the rail, I like rolling up onto it myself, ala Beard. The 14 (by the 3) does bank cross-corner, but it would have to lay perfectly for Reyes to be able to control whitey.

Doc
:confused::confused::confused::sorry:sorry:lol:lol
Read through the thread again.:D

Dr. Bill
 
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wincardona

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This is about the fifth time I am going to say this, unless he lays the 3 ball on the long rail, I am going at worst be able to kick behind it and move the cue ball up table. For Efren to cross the 3 ball and lay it on or very close to the cushion is unlikely, especially if he is trying to put the cue ball on the foot rail. And yes, there is a scratch possibility.

I really dont want to make this a contest (except perhaps with Dr Bill), I am just stating what I would do, and would have confidence in doing it and knowing what plan I would try and implement from there.

That is not to say that some of those other options couldnt work out, they could, I just like the percentages of my option.

And just to remind everybody, there is no, I repeat no, option that would win the game no matter how well executed the shot was. My way might take longer to win, but I sure aint gonna lose for awhile, and he sure aint gonna instantly beat me crossing the 3 ball.

Beard
What really puzzles me is ..people supporting your option:confused: There isn't any value (what so ever) in choosing your option in any scenario.:sorry Especially when trailing 7 to 0. :frus I can understand why mr3 cushion and The Ghost haven't rebutted..you being the Godfather of pool in Chicago:heh You must have something on Steve, he's always pretty much "spot on" with his critiquing, however, he's even weakened. Petie is always in your corner, and Larry is "enthralled" with your way of words (which is by far your strong suit) Art (Doc) is also siding with your option (which doesn't surprise me) probably thinking that there's this profound meaning "deeply seeded" in the thinking end of it.:lol Tom conceded ..as expected. You even got The Hacker gettin soft on us but like Steve says...it's probably not even him.:D Anyways, i'm not letting you off the hook on this one.

THERE'S A FLAW IN YOUR THINKING


Dr. Bill
 

tylerdurden

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I will just say that Tom seemed to have respectfully bowed out after stating his opinion. I can certainly respect that.

Everyone has seemed to have brought up some good points in this thread. One of my favorite points in the thread was when Freddy brought up the spotted balls. I had never given that enough thought. Of course, each situation must be analyzed in its own way, but the more I think about the spotted line of balls, the more I feel it staying intact is of strong benefit to the trailing player. That is perhaps an obvious statement, but it really is hard to monkey with them if you are the leader, and it is pretty easy to get into them and/or send a 2 rail kick safety off them if you are the trailer. It is also easy to add more balls to the line. I stated my shot already, but those were just some passing thoughts.
 
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petie

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I usually don't take the time to critique other shot choices and leaves, but Petie, here I am compelled to.....if Efren, or anybody else for that matter, ends up snuggled against that right side of the 6..it doesn't "block them from doing almost anything"...on the contrary, Efren/they will just gladly shoot the simple, mistake-proof safety of feathering that 6 ball and rolling on down to the foot rail.

- Ghost

You might be right that he would have a good answer but if he hits the right side if the six (unles he dies on it which would not be his intent), the six will come off th rail and the one ball and block the cue ball.
 

fred bentivegna

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I will just say that Tom seemed to have respectfully bowed out after stating his opinion. I can certainly respect that.

Everyone has seemed to have brought up some good points in this thread. One of my favorite points in the thread was when Freddy brought up the spotted balls. I had never given that enough thought. Of course, each situation must be analyzed in its own way, but the more I think about the spotted line of balls, the more I feel it staying intact is of strong benefit to the trailing player. That is perhaps an obvious statement, but it really is hard to monkey with them if you are the leader, and it is pretty easy to get into them and/or send a 2 rail kick safety off them if you are the trailer. It is also easy to add more balls to the line. I stated my shot already, but those were just some passing thoughts.

I see, said the blind man. Glad everything I try to imbue is not for naught.

Beard

(Dr Bill said it was probably good for Buddy to open them up:frus :confused:)
 

mr3cushion

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What really puzzles me is ..people supporting your option:confused: There isn't any value (what so ever) in choosing your option in any scenario.:sorry Especially when trailing 7 to 0. :frus I can understand why mr3 cushion and The Ghost haven't rebutted..you being the Godfather of pool in Chicago:heh You must have something on Steve, he's always pretty much "spot on" with his critiquing, however, he's even weakened. Petie is always in your corner, and Larry is "enthralled" with your way of words (which is by far your strong suit) Art (Doc) is also siding with your option (which doesn't surprise me) probably thinking that there's this profound meaning "deeply seeded" in the thinking end of it.:lol Tom conceded ..as expected. You even got The Hacker gettin soft on us but like Steve says...it's probably not even him.:D Anyways, i'm not letting you off the hook on this one.

THERE'S A FLAW IN YOUR THINKING


Dr. Bill

Billy; NOW that you brought me into it. Did you EVER consider the option that Freddy presented, (quite well I might add), MAY be actually be correct in this situation!

I guess everyone may have figured out by now I consider Artie to be the MOST controlled and BEST percentage winning player against anybody he played, from shortstop to world class champions! Like Freddy, I would be hard pressed to find a spot where I would NOT bet on him, it's real simple, he just knows how to get the money! This is a atypical Artieism, wait till the right moment, visualize what's coming up 2 or 3 moves ahead. He was a MASTER at forcing his opponent into trap after trap, causing a self-implosion of their normal game. You, yourself have been mesmerized by it's effects on one's stroke. The constant pressure he put players under to execute difficult shots was TOO much for most to handle, thus, loosing their cheese!

One of the MOST important aspects of winning money gambling playing 3C, is, " You have to be patient," if you play the correct shots at the proper time, for YOUR ability, your opponent whether they be weak or strong will make a costly mistake. The weaker player more often and sooner then the champion! This is what I think Freddy is alluding to.

You brought me in, these are MY thoughts!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"


P.S. The one other thing to mention here is, this is a What YOU Would DO, NOT what the player did from the actual game. This is about opinions, NOT trying to force feed each members opinion down the rest of our throats! I think the "Hacker" may have touched on this point!
 
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sappo

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Billy; NOW that you brought me into it. Did you EVER consider the option that Freddy presented, (quite well I might add), MAY be actually be correct in this situation!

I guess everyone may have figured out by now I consider Artie to be the MOST controlled and BEST percentage winning player against anybody he played, from shortstop to world class champions! Like Freddy, I would be hard pressed to find a spot where I would NOT bet on him, it's real simple, he just knows how to get the money! This is a atypical Artieism, wait till the right moment, visualize what's coming up 2 or 3 moves ahead. He was a MASTER at forcing his opponent into trap after trap, causing a self-implosion of their normal game. You, yourself have been mesmerized by it's effects on one's stroke. The constant pressure he put players under to execute difficult shots was TOO much for most to handle, thus, loosing their cheese!

One of the MOST important aspects of winning money gambling playing 3C, is, " You have to be patient," if you play the correct shots at the proper time, for YOUR ability, your opponent whether they be weak or strong will make a costly mistake. The weaker player more often and sooner then the champion! This is what I think Freddy is alluding to.

You brought me in, these are MY thoughts!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"


P.S. The one other thing to mention here is, this is a What YOU Would DO, NOT what the player did from the actual game. This is about opinions, NOT trying to force feed each members opinion down the rest of our throats! I think the "Hacker" may have touched on this point!

Tap, tap, tap!
 

NH Steve

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B. Hall vs. E. Reyes 2005 D.C.C.

I would like to point out Freddy and I independently came up with the simple rail first nudge on the six. I still like the simplicity of it and the fact that it guarantees all balls in play stay in play -- for the moment anyway ;)

The only other shot that on trying it I liked a lot was the three rail on the 3. But I admit I did not try Toms crossing over the ball in the spot shot. I'll try that next time at a table just to see what you guys are so excited about :)
 

wincardona

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I see, said the blind man. Glad everything I try to imbue is not for naught.

Beard

(Dr Bill said it was probably good for Buddy to open them up:frus :confused:)

Post #27
Tom, your shot like Fred's shot to me is too passive, sorry. By opening up the two balls on the foot spot you are giving your opponent more options to move balls 'up table' Balls frozen on the foot spot are often difficult to move (which favors Buddy) Buddy's objective is either to get balls down table or position balls that are difficult to move up table, which by banking the 3ball is what he'll be doing. If he banks the 3ball and positions it where Reyes cant see it then Reyes will be forced to play conservatively which may allow Buddy to continue in developing a stronger position. That's the part that I was referring to when I mentioned that "applying pressure" was whats needed from this situation with the score and ball position referenced. I would really be surprised to see Buddy play any other shot than the 3ball bank option.

I play mostly cue ball with the 3ball option, at the same time trying to drop the 3ball under the 2ball near the foot rail. If the 2ball snookers Reyes from moving the 3ball, then Buddies in business.

Post #71
Banking the 3ball one rail is not a tough shot to execute, in terms of accuracy and speed. The shot is played not to make the bank but to lay it close to the bottom rail..behind the 2ball. The cue ball should be hit with "two tips" right english, which will send the cue ball toward the 14ball, taking away the cross corner scratch possibility. I would try to execute the shot so the cue ball hits safely to the left of the 14ball and then softly toward it. Iknow it's a tough shot, however, you're margin for error is large. o With the correct speed both the cue ball and the 3ball should end up where intended providing you hit the shot well. By ending up with the cue ball around the area where the 14ball sits the 2ball and 13ball should cover the 3ball and take away all soft kicks into the 3ball off the side rail. From that position Reyes will be in deep trouble. Also from that position no other balls that favor Buddy can be safely moved from their position, insuring the position to remain intact. Too me the above move is playing the game as strongly as the situation allows you to.



Evidently what I tried to imbue went over your head or wasn't noticed, along with many other heads. Does the bolded part above sound like I said "it was good for Buddy to open them up" NO What I said in an earlier post was that it was good for both players for them to be opened, ill explain. It's good for Reyes to have them open because it makes Reyes job easier to put them out of play. It's also good for Buddy to have them open because it lends to more ball running potential, however, who opens them and the timing on when their open is crucial when deciding...who they favor at that time.

By the way, I tried to imbue the benefit of the spotted balls not being open favoring Buddy..long before your acknowledgement of it.:heh:p

Please look hard at the second part that was bolded above, that's where the real "golden nuggets" of information is imbued. :D Positioning the cue ball where it favors Buddy the most, with no mishaps, none, and no good counter move (cue ball by the 14ball)

Dr. Bill
 
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wincardona

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I would like to point out Freddy and I independently came up with the simple rail first nudge on the six. I still like the simplicity of it and the fact that it guarantees all balls in play stay in play -- for the moment anyway ;) ( That's not true Steve, matter of fact the option allows Reyes to move the 3ball from Buddies side and position it on his side, which actually aborts the value and purpose with the option. Understanding this it puzzles me why people can't see the glaring deterrent this option carries)

The only other shot that on trying it I liked a lot was the three rail on the 3. But I admit I did not try Toms crossing over the ball in the spot shot. I'll try that next time at a table just to see what you guys are so excited about :)

Steve, there are only four possible options (within reason)

*One rail bank on the 3ball
* Three rail bank on the 3ball
*Cross over the 7ball from the spotted balls
* Lag or kick at the 6ball.


WWYD threads are designed to offer different opinions as to how people think, which in itself should broaden every ones knowledge base..that's a good thing. Also, there are many excellent points made when discussing options that add value to the option..providing the shoe fits with the option. That's where all the confusion is, mostly all options are easy to depict (after their acknowledged) and then we must decide whether the principle in the value of the of the decision is actually there, or are we trying to force a decision that doesn't have the merit it was presented in having.

Through this thread I have written and read post by very experienced players that have either supported or contested glaring facts that have supported or contested the validity of strong principles that supposedly existed in the option, which I respected and learned from. However, there are legitimate questions that were asked to people/players pertaining to the weakness in certain crucial areas of the chosen option that wasn't intelligently resolved, only to hear the "dancing around the question" answer. To me that's not fair to the people trying to learn.:sorry I'm a very meticulous person, especially when it comes to breaking something down, which I try to avail to others when discussing one pocket. Quite often i'm perceived as a "know it all" that's the impression I leave with certain people, others I leave with a better understanding of the game,.. which is my intention.

Dr. Bill
 
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Tom Wirth

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Bill,
The only point I have been adamant about has been the kick shot Fred has so vigorously defended. This shot is a stone cold loser. (No disrespect to Fred, only to his choice of shot in this instance.) I explained clearly why this is so to the satisfaction of a few including you. Why others are slow to come around to acknowledging this I can't say or even have an interest in pursuing. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their methods of playing the game, Fred included.

I accepted as you know from reading more than one of my posts, that a shot on the three ball either by three rails or one rail was a viable alternative option to the "passive" shot I also summited as a possibility. This alternative shot may not be the "best" choice for this situation but it is a shot which does present problems for Efren if executed properly and it is very easy to execute and place the cue ball in any one of a variety of locations. This holds true for the OB too. (If I wanted to I could manipulate the shot so the spotted ball would stop directly between the cue ball and the remaining spotted ball while still getting the cue ball to the back rail.) This can be done by the thickness of the hit on the OB. I use this only as an example.

Again, this is not to say the three ball bank is not the proper shot here. My argument has been with the kick shot. This is the only shot of all the choices describe which I really don't like at all. I won't go into the whys again.

Freddy has made up his mind what shot he likes and I will no longer attempt to dissuade him or his supporters from this decision. I only know I would choose one of three other choices. I would have to be at the table and have a feel for the game before I commit to one of them. I only know what I would not do.

Tom
 

wincardona

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Billy; NOW that you brought me into it. Did you EVER consider the option that Freddy presented, (quite well I might add), MAY be actually be correct in this situation! ( Bill, of course I considered the option, however, in this situation his option doesn't apply. Simply put..it renders him to end up in a worse position than he initially shot from. For those who can't see that then they are blinded.:sorry for my bluntness)

I guess everyone may have figured out by now I consider Artie to be the MOST controlled and BEST percentage winning player against anybody he played, from shortstop to world class champions! Like Freddy, I would be hard pressed to find a spot where I would NOT bet on him, it's real simple, he just knows how to get the money! This is a atypical Artieism, wait till the right moment, visualize what's coming up 2 or 3 moves ahead. He was a MASTER at forcing his opponent into trap after trap, causing a self-implosion of their normal game. You, yourself have been mesmerized by it's effects on one's stroke. The constant pressure he put players under to execute difficult shots was TOO much for most to handle, thus, loosing their cheese! ( You may be correct with how you view Artie, however, you nor Freddie can speak for anyone, including Artie. So for you or Freddie to say that Artie would do this, or Artie would do that is purely an assumption. If Artie was such a unique player how is it that both you and Freddie knows how he would play? So actually Freddies option was not what Artie would do, it was in reality...what Freddie would do. Freddie is using Artie as a reference without Artie confirming what he would do, make sense?)

One of the MOST important aspects of winning money gambling playing 3C, is, " You have to be patient," if you play the correct shots at the proper time, for YOUR ability, your opponent whether they be weak or strong will make a costly mistake. The weaker player more often and sooner then the champion! This is what I think Freddy is alluding to. ( The axiom you alluded to is an attribute that will offer a benefit to whomever possesses it in just about any situation. However, this option is imo not about having patience, it's more about concept that is suited for the situation, period)
You brought me in, these are MY thoughts!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"


P.S. The one other thing to mention here is, this is a What YOU Would DO, NOT what the player did from the actual game. This is about opinions, NOT trying to force feed each members opinion down the rest of our throats! I think the "Hacker" may have touched on this point!

I'm not trying to "force feed" anything down any ones throat but what I am guilty of is not letting an obvious misleading piece of advice go uncontested. Freddie is one of the most knowledgeable one pocket players alive and he believes strongly in his concepts. Unfortunately he has these "pet concepts" that he sees as 'constant' and it's unfair to apply them to some of the situations he tries to apply them to. This being one of them, and it's not working. But what really frustrates me is, that it's obviously not applicable in this situation because of the availability of the return shot in answer to the option. :frus But yet he still refuses to bend. I'm sorry.

I have beaten this as much as I could of possibly beaten it, and I apologize to any one that I may have offended. Maybe I made a few angry, maybe I made a few other than angry. Hopefully this thread has helped people, regardless of whom you support.

Dr. Bill
 

fred bentivegna

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I'm not trying to "force feed" anything down any ones throat but what I am guilty of is not letting an obvious misleading piece of advice go uncontested. Freddie is one of the most knowledgeable one pocket players alive and he believes strongly in his concepts. Unfortunately he has these "pet concepts" that he sees as 'constant' and it's unfair to apply them to some of the situations he tries to apply them to. This being one of them, and it's not working. But what really frustrates me is, that it's obviously not applicable in this situation because of the availability of the return shot in answer to the option. :frus But yet he still refuses to bend. I'm sorry.

I have beaten this as much as I could of possibly beaten it, and I apologize to any one that I may have offended. Maybe I made a few angry, maybe I made a few other than angry. Hopefully this thread has helped people, regardless of whom you support.

Dr. Bill

I never said, "this is what Artie would do." I might have said that Artie often did simple things like this rather than risk moving any "soldiers" that were already in place. And this is just something that I often like to do. Oftentimes when I do something like this my opponent gets befuddled,and over analyzes the situation and thinks I have some super move in mind, and as a result he winds up doing something to stymie me and not the simple thing he was supposed to do. When I shoot stuff like this, I sell it as if I am doing something secret and strong.

Beard
 

Tom Wirth

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Steve, there are only four possible options (within reason)

*One rail bank on the 3ball
* Three rail bank on the 3ball
*Cross over the 7ball from the spotted balls
* Lag or kick at the 6ball.



Through this thread I have written and read post by very experienced players that have either supported or contested glaring facts that have supported or contested the validity of strong principles that supposedly existed in the option, which I respected and learned from. However, there are legitimate questions that were asked to people/players pertaining to the weakness in certain crucial areas of the chosen option that wasn't intelligently resolved, only to hear the "dancing around the question" answer. To me that's not fair to the people trying to learn.:sorry I'm a very meticulous person, especially when it comes to breaking something down, which I try to avail to others when discussing one pocket. Quite often i'm perceived as a "know it all" that's the impression I leave with certain people, others I leave with a better understanding of the game,.. which is my intention.
Dr. Bill

Bill, I think there are others who have offered opinions during this thread who have the goal of sharing their own educated thoughts. I have no doubt Fred feels that way and I know I do. We are all very opinionated and strong in our convictions that our solutions are intelligent and powerful. This is why there is so much banter among us about a situation with so few possibilities. The intentions are to convey knowledge for knowledge sake. It is for others to accept or deny this information. I know I rarely discard outright someone's input without scrutiny.

Most all of you know of Fred's and Bill's expertise. Maybe you don't know much of my history or knowledge of the game. I'm not a big time, high profile player. However I have had my share of big time matches against some of the best in the business and emerged victorious on many occasions. The strength of my knowledge I will leave to you to decide given a reasonable period of time from reading my posts and the logic I employ. I am confident that my input will convince any skeptic that I know what I am talking about.

Tom
 

petie

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What really puzzles me is ..people supporting your option:confused: There isn't any value (what so ever) in choosing your option in any scenario.:sorry Especially when trailing 7 to 0. :frus I can understand why mr3 cushion and The Ghost haven't rebutted..you being the Godfather of pool in Chicago:heh You must have something on Steve, he's always pretty much "spot on" with his critiquing, however, he's even weakened. Petie is always in your corner, and Larry is "enthralled" with your way of words (which is by far your strong suit) Art (Doc) is also siding with your option (which doesn't surprise me) probably thinking that there's this profound meaning "deeply seeded" in the thinking end of it.:lol Tom conceded ..as expected. You even got The Hacker gettin soft on us but like Steve says...it's probably not even him.:D Anyways, i'm not letting you off the hook on this one.

THERE'S A FLAW IN YOUR THINKING


Dr. Bill

It doesn't have to be one of us against another. If you noticed, I'm in everybody's corner. I'm all for you. I want you to be the best you can be. I loose nothing if you excel unless we are in a duel. You have my highest respect. I make my comments on shots based on my interpretation of it's merit. I think you are invaluable to this website. You also fully explain your shots and reasons why you advocate this or that. I think you are very knowledgeable and very generous with that knowledge. There are times I think you are more influenced by 9-ball than I am.
 

NH Steve

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It was not my intent to try to convince everyone my shot was the best shot. All I was saying was it was the shot I saw for me, and then tried to explain why I liked it. Who knows, maybe even at a real table with this exact set up, I would have felt differently.

Like I think I said earlier, one of the great things (and unique things) about One Pocket is how different players -- including much better ones than me -- come up with different shot choices, and they all seem to have their reasons. Here on OnePocket.org we have the unique opportunity to hear many of those different choices and their reasoning. If what is learned does not end up applying exactly in this situation, due to stubbornness, pride or simply difference of opinion, I have no doubt that at some point is some future game, nuggets learned here will help there.
 
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