my new cue

[darmoose]

I have both shafts and as far as I am concerned the touch and feel of a natural shaft over a LD is very noticeable especially shots taken at low or pocket speed. I also believe that I transfer english from the cb to the ob at lower speeds better with an all natural shaft. I believe that I may pocket balls a tad better and cleaner with the LD shaft but I think the touch and feel of the natural all-wood shaft is much better suited for the game of one pocket. I don't really know a damn thing but that's just my opinion.

I very much agree with this above and with PJ. No question LD shafts have different characteristics than maple shafts, but it seems the most pronounced differences are at higher speeds (harder shots).

If you work to shoot at pocket speed, it would seem that the benefit of lower deflection would pale compared to the loss of feel and feedback.

The video posted by Ghostie below shows that even with the highly touted Revo shaft, there is still deflection that has to be accounted for, so why try to retrain your brain after sooo long. Maybe good for nine ball or even banks, lesser so for one pocket.

I don't know if I would get more or less english, or defection for that matter, with an LD shaft, but I do know I wouldn't get the same english and deflection I been getting for the last 50 years. That's knowing enough for me.

JAHO

 

[androd]

Rod, Jeff, etc....this guy called: BrandonBilliardGuy, has some you tube videos showing very clearly the different amounts of deflection produced by several different shafts...here's one example >>>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YLT8IPsyHk

And Rod, trust the Ghost - your attention span will have no problem watching this one.....

Thanx Pal
very nice of you, I hung in.

 

[gulfportdoc]

Gulfportdoc: Likewise it doesn't seem necessary to contact as far from center OB with the LD shaft in order to get the same spin result. But again, I don't know how that could be so. It's probably simply perception.

I'm pretty sure this is just perception. One possible explanation is that it seems like you're hitting closer to center because you're getting less squirt. Again, using a marked CB and confirming where you hit it can show for sure (if you have the patience for such tests) - I've compared lots of high-squirt and low-squirt cues this way and have never found a measurable difference.
pj
chgo

In the quote above, which you answered, I meant to say "...as far from center CB". But you answered it as I had said that anyhow. Pretty good, PJ! And I hadn't considered swerve, which presumably speaks to some of the guys' comments.

You're probably right about the feeling that the CB contact is closer to center because of less squirt. Still, I notice that I oftentimes impart too much sidespin on the CB having cued it at the same spot I'd become accustomed to with a solid shaft, to where I consciously try to cue the CB less far from center. Therefore the perception is that the LD shaft (OB-1) is capable of imparting more sidespin to the CB. Perhaps it's the fault of an 11.75 mm tip width. But tip size is another topic.

~Doc

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In the quote above, which you answered, I meant to say "...as far from center CB". But you answered it as I had said that anyhow. Pretty good, PJ! And I hadn't considered swerve, which presumably speaks to some of the guys' comments.

You're probably right about the feeling that the CB contact is closer to center because of less squirt. Still, I notice that I oftentimes impart too much sidespin on the CB having cued it at the same spot I'd become accustomed to with a solid shaft, to where I consciously try to cue the CB less far from center. Therefore the perception is that the LD shaft (OB-1) is capable of imparting more sidespin to the CB. Perhaps it's the fault of an 11.75 mm tip width. But tip size is another topic.

~Doc

Doc, there's a simple way to compare cues/shafts to see if any produce more spin than others:

1. Use a striped ball as the "cue ball" - place it with the stripe vertical and centered as you look at it from shooting position.

2. Place the "cue ball" on the spot, aimed at the second diamond on the long rail (i.e., a shooting directly into the long rail so the ball would rebound straight back to the spot with no side spin).

3. Hit the ball straight at the diamond with maximum side spin - you should be hitting right on the edge of the vertical stripe, on the "equator" - and just hard enough to rebound back to the near side rail.

4. Check the chalk mark you made to be sure you hit the very edge of the stripe.

5. Compare only those shots that you hit accurately
- chalk mark right on the edge of the stripe
- ball hits the rail right at the second diamond
- ball travels the same distance (just about back to the near side rail)

If you follow these instructions carefully to compare apples and apples, I don't believe you'll find any cue/shaft that produces more side spin than another. I've done it many times and have never found a difference.

pj
chgo

 

[gulfportdoc]

Good suggestion, PJ. I'll give 'er a try...

~Doc

 

[Scrzbill]

Doc, there's a simple way to compare cues/shafts to see if any produce more spin than others:

1. Use a striped ball as the "cue ball" - place it with the stripe vertical and centered as you look at it from shooting position.

2. Place the "cue ball" on the spot, aimed at the second diamond on the long rail (i.e., a shooting directly into the long rail so the ball would rebound straight back to the spot with no side spin).

3. Hit the ball straight at the spot with maximum side spin - you should be hitting right on the edge of the vertical stripe, on the "equator" - and just hard enough to rebound back to the near side rail.

4. Check the chalk mark you made to be sure you hit the very edge of the stripe.

5. Compare only those shots that you hit accurately
- chalk mark right on the edge of the stripe
- ball hits the rail right at the second diamond
- ball travels the same distance (just about back to the near side rail)

If you follow these instructions carefully to compare apples and apples, I don't believe you'll find any cue/shaft that produces more side spin than another. I've done it many times and have never found a difference.

pj
chgo

Do you use a machine that accurately measures each stroke? Do you play with a low deflection shaft or a regular shaft?

 

[Scrzbill]

I can only tell from experience how the low deflection shafts effects my game. I admit, I would give an arm and a leg to be a shortstop, but for me there is a big aiming difference. It could be my lack of talent.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

I very much agree with this above and with PJ. No question LD shafts have different characteristics than maple shafts, but it seems the most pronounced differences are at higher speeds (harder shots).

If you work to shoot at pocket speed, it would seem that the benefit of lower deflection would pale compared to the loss of feel and feedback.

The video posted by Ghostie below shows that even with the highly touted Revo shaft, there is still deflection that has to be accounted for, so why try to retrain your brain after sooo long. Maybe good for nine ball or even banks, lesser so for one pocket.

I don't know if I would get more or less english, or defection for that matter, with an LD shaft, but I do know I wouldn't get the same english and deflection I been getting for the last 50 years. That's knowing enough for me.

JAHO

^ All of that is how I feel also...that's why I decided to not even try out playing with an LD shaft.

- Ghost

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Do you use a machine that accurately measures each stroke?

We're talking about shafts, but I'm glad you mentioned stroke - I think the same answer applies to both: if you hit the CB on the same spot at the same speed and angle you'll get the same result - no matter what shaft or stroke you use.

Do you play with a low deflection shaft or a regular shaft?

A custom maple shaft with the lowest deflection of any cue I've tried, but with a very stiff conical taper and solid hit.

pj
chgo

 

[Scrzbill]

A custom maple shaft with the lowest deflection of any cue I've tried, but with a very stiff conical taper and solid hit.

pj
chgo[/QUOTE]

Ted Harris makes a shaft similar to what you describe only he changes the ferrules to a new composite material, no drilled or hollow shafts.

 

[gulfportdoc]

...
If you follow these instructions carefully to compare apples and apples, I don't believe you'll find any cue/shaft that produces more side spin than another. I've done it many times and have never found a difference. pj
chgo

I tried it last night, and you're right, there was very little difference. And I was using an Ultraskin 11.75 mm tip on the OB-1 shaft, and a LePro 13mm on the solid shaft. When you take away the "feel" properties, both performed about the same in terms of side-spin. I'll try it on table length shots to confirm. Good test, and it was surprising.

~Doc

 

[Island Drive]

I tried it last night, and you're right, there was very little difference. And I was using an Ultraskin 11.75 mm tip on the OB-1 shaft, and a LePro 13mm on the solid shaft. When you take away the "feel" properties, both performed about the same in terms of side-spin. I'll try it on table length shots to confirm. Good test, and it was surprising.

~Doc

Doc, what's happening with LD when applying some horizontal side spin.....is the squirt line of the cue ball path to the object ball contact point is lessened, therefore when shooting the shot with the same spin, your hitting the object ball Fuller than with a Maple shaft, therefore transferring the spin/gearing even moreso because of the thicker hit on the obj. ball. LD changes your tangent lines and your approach on every shot. What I do find interesting. Shoot a straight in into the pocket, medium speed with a full tip of horizontal 3 or 9 o'clock spin with a Maple and then with a LD. Hit the exact same spot on the obj. ball. If the balls are dirty, results will be more extreme.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A custom maple shaft with the lowest deflection of any cue I've tried, but with a very stiff conical taper and solid hit.

pj
chgo

Scrzbill:

Ted Harris makes a shaft similar to what you describe only he changes the ferrules to a new composite material, no drilled or hollow shafts.

Mine is hollow for the first several inches at the tip - that, the 10mm tip and the small ferrule together reduce "end mass" enough to create very little squirt (about a 20" pivot length).

I don't break with it, but it has a very solid hit because of the conical taper.

I had Chicago cuemaker Ed Young make it for me to my specifications - cost $150 10 years ago (the good ol' days).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I tried it last night, and you're right, there was very little difference. And I was using an Ultraskin 11.75 mm tip on the OB-1 shaft, and a LePro 13mm on the solid shaft. When you take away the "feel" properties, both performed about the same in terms of side-spin. I'll try it on table length shots to confirm. Good test, and it was surprising.

~Doc

Thanks for the report, Doc - testing your beliefs and accepting the results is the mark of a real man.

By the way, I use Ultraskins (hard) too - best value I've found in the pool world.

pj
chgo

 

[androd]

I tried it last night, and you're right, there was very little difference. And I was using an Ultraskin 11.75 mm tip on the OB-1 shaft, and a LePro 13mm on the solid shaft. When you take away the "feel" properties, both performed about the same in terms of side-spin. I'll try it on table length shots to confirm. Good test, and it was surprising.

~Doc

Thanks for the report, Doc - testing your beliefs and accepting the results is the mark of a real man.

By the way, I use Ultraskins (hard) too - best value I've found in the pool world.
pj
chgo

I don't under stand most of this (I'm not the sharpest bulb in the drawer)

What I get is I shouldn't change anything about the way I aim, because it's all the same, my problems are my imagination.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't under stand most of this (I'm not the sharpest bulb in the drawer)

What I get is I shouldn't change anything about the way I aim, because it's all the same, my problems are my imagination.

That's not what I'm saying, Rod - I'm saying there's no need to change anything to get the same amount of spin on the CB. You definitely need to change where you aim with a ld shaft vs. a "normal" one. I think most players have difficulty with the change because they're not consciously aware that they "adjust" their aim for deflection so they don't know how to "readjust" - they have to just shoot a bunch of shots until it "clicks" again.

pj
chgo

 

[androd]

That's not what I'm saying, Rod - I'm saying there's no need to change anything to get the same amount of spin on the CB. You definitely need to change where you aim with a ld shaft vs. a "normal" one. I think most players have difficulty with the change because they're not consciously aware that they "adjust" their aim for deflection so they don't know how to "readjust" - they have to just shoot a bunch of shots until it "clicks" again.
pj
chgo

Thanks the biggest prob I have is adjusting to less CIE, if I remember you said not possible?
P.S. I shoot the balls in fine it's some banks I have a prob. They must be cut they can't be turned with English except at a slow speed.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Thanks the biggest prob I have is adjusting to less CIE, if I remember you said not possible?

CIE (contact-induced English) should be the same, since there's no spin. And spin-induced English only depends on the amount of spin on the CB, so it should be the same with either shaft too. (Shot speed and forward/reverse spin also affect the outcome, but I'm assuming for this conversation that they're the same with both shots.)

I know this is confusing - it took me awhile to sort out the various causes/effects too.

P.S. I shoot the balls in fine it's some banks I have a prob. They must be cut they can't be turned with English except at a slow speed.

The only explanation I can think of for this is that you aim banks differently than non-banks (you "feel" the bank angle rather than "aim at" a target), so your aim adjustment for non-bank shots doesn't work as well for banks. There should be no difference if you're hitting the same spot on the OB.

pj
chgo

 

[androd]

CIE (contact-induced English) should be the same, since there's no spin. And spin-induced English only depends on the amount of spin on the CB, so it should be the same with either shaft too. (Shot speed and forward/reverse spin also affect the outcome, but I'm assuming for this conversation that they're the same with both shots.)

I know this is confusing - it took me awhile to sort out the various causes/effects too.


The only explanation I can think of for this is that you aim banks differently than non-banks (you "feel" the bank angle rather than "aim at" a target), so your aim adjustment for non-bank shots doesn't work as well for banks. There should be no difference if you're hitting the same spot on the OB.

pj
chgo

Well I was never a natural banker and don't have a lot of feel.
In my defense I know what a half ball hit is, which is how I (use to aim most banks.)
P.S. Thanx for the insights.

 

[Island Drive]

That's not what I'm saying, Rod - I'm saying there's no need to change anything to get the same amount of spin on the CB. You definitely need to change where you aim with a ld shaft vs. a "normal" one. I think most players have difficulty with the change because they're not consciously aware that they "adjust" their aim for deflection so they don't know how to "readjust" - they have to just shoot a bunch of shots until it "clicks" again.pj
chgo

I don't think it's as easy as one thinks. You have to aim differently and change your approach, then you also have to play position differently and patterns differently and since your hitting the object ball fuller all your tangent lines are different, as is your speed control.