J. Morra vs D. Louie WWYD

crabbcatjohn

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Ok, after further review I thought this sequence of shots deserved Its own thread. We don't talk about these situations much. So you are playing this match with DCC rules. You are playing a pro and you've never encountered this situation. WWYD, what do you say and what is the correct way to handle these tournament situations when they come up. Starts at 3:41 Watch Morras shot close before watching Dans return shot.
 
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Island Drive

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He's doing that intentionally, Dan's obviously not on top of the shot, but I don't see how it possibly would/did/could have affected the game because he was on 1 foul 1st. He could of just touched it with his finger :). But he took advantage of an older man with vision not great. Dan tho, is one of thee most standup quiality men on a pool table in all my years of play. Last time we locked horns was in Burlington IA along the Mississippi in the EARLY 70's, where the promoter countney/coffee didn't pay out as guaranteed. Was also the venue where a ten ball ring game lasted thru till the next day. Black Bart/Searcy/Mataya and a couple others. Mataya quit the game, got his sleep, came back and busted the ring game the next day. Black Bart/Bob Osborne hocked his new Volvo/Green Wagon to stay in the game and was able to keep it. Those weeeeeeeeeeere the dayz/nights.
 

lll

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thanks for the link john
i am with the camp that doesnt think morra touched the ball
i would have asked morra did he touch the cue ball
and have to accept his answer
morra did come with a nice kick
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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John, I stopped it at Mora shot w/ the cb locked tight against the foot rail jaw. From there he can see his balls along the long rail and the 13 & 10.
I am jacking up into the 13 to put the cb over on Dan side by his hole. Very difficult shot.

Thanks for putting this up, I am going to enjoy watching the rest of the match. Dan, I know quite well and we've competed against each other a few times. A really nice guy, to say the least!

Ok, I thought we were doing a wwyd. But it does not appear Morra touched the ball. I think this happens quite a bit when tapping within the stack.
Dan did not approach to watch the hit, so no recourse.

For me, if the cb is frozen to the rail, which it appears to be so, then the way Morra tapped it if he did touch would be a wedging foul under DCC rules. Explanation; Morra stroked directly at it leaving no other possible scenario except to wedge the cb. Even if the cb was not frozen the way he stroked directly at it, it then left a high chance of wedging the cb.

Whether the 45 degree angle of an elevated bujtt would have saved Morra, I do not have a clue, I guess so as long as he does not use a push stroke. A push stroke is when you lay the cue tip against the cue ball and then stroke through. This is actually my rule that Bret Baker their TD adopted. I did a pool session with him on close proximity shots.

tTe way Dan stroked it you will see it was off to the side, no wedge foul. Better to tap on an angle, then you will not wedge, and in stack play tap when close or frozen to an ob, tap on an angle, then you are not trapping the cb within the stack with a possible illegal stroke..

The Derby City Rule;

Trapping or Wedging the Cue Ball
It is a foul if a player deliberately traps or wedges the cue ball in the jaw of a pocket. In addition to the foul penalty, the opponent receives cue ball in hand behind the head string.

It is legal for the opponent to approach the table on shots such as this when there can be a possible trap or wedge occurring. Also if the cue might be frozen to a ball or not, approach the table to see.

**** If this scenario was played out under my Express One Pocket Rules then the game would of progressed by each player giving the other player one of their scored balls. Or, Morra would of gave Dan a ball and Dan could of passed the shot back. Under these rules Morra would of probably done the kick right a way.

**** But, it saves precious tournament time, makes players think twice about tap tap. And possibly no need to go to the Grady Rule & performance time limit bench marks as we what is happen now. Plus it creates a higher standard of play for you are going to have to shoot your way out of there, and you better up your kicking game.

Larry, you put up your like before I finished my post. I know you are a traditionalist so you probably do not care for my express ideas.

Whitey
 
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crabbcatjohn

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This is a wwyd because these situations come up. Similar situations have happened to me at DCC and they are very difficult to handle correctly especially at that event.
IMO even Dan who is a very experienced player made two mistakes during these two innings. So Its Morras shot here first. If your Dan whats your first mistake here, wwyd and how would you handle it.

I think beginners reading this as well as experienced players could use some thoughts on the correct way to deal with these type situations. I've twice mishandled these at DCC and came out looser for it.. And the tournament desk and refs are a mile away.
 
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baby huey

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I see no trap from John. The cueball appears to be resting against the pocket facing and he just touched it for a foul. He didn't trap it IMO.
 

Billy Jackets

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I would have stopped Morra and got a ref immediately, this is a huge shot in the game and if you sleep it , you get what you deserve about every time. I'm not sure how anyone can tell from here what actually happened , if it was frozen originally it was a trap for sure, if not he did rock the ball, which is not a go to shot for anyone I ever saw play the game. Maybe he has it perfected? But does he shoot it the same way, with the ref there and the huge penalty ? who knows.
Dans could have been the same , and he could have easily left the cueball out side of the pocket by hitting off to an angle.. Thats how Morra would have had to shoot it with a ref standing there , imo or risk giving Dan ball in hand behind the line. which he is not going to ever do. He saw Dan was not on the shot and fast shot him. happens all day every day. Dan should have been paying better attention. You can tell what Morras going to do when he lines up straight on, This is just how I view the shot
 

cincy_kid

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This is a wwyd because these situations come up. Similar situations have happened to me at DCC and they are very difficult to handle correctly especially at that event.
IMO even Dan who is a very experienced player made two mistakes during these two innings. So Its Morras shot here first. If your Dan whats your first mistake here, wwyd and how would you handle it.

I think beginners reading this as well as experienced players could use some thoughts on the correct way to deal with these type situations. I've twice mishandled these at DCC and came out looser for it.. And the tournament desk and refs are a mile away.
tap it back if I am dan, since John will foul out before me.
 
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Billy Jackets

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tap it back if I am dan, since John will foul out before me.
He did tap it back, then Morra made a great kick and got a perfect roll, which is why I think Dan had a minor meltdown later at 3"40 something, he kicked at an 8 ball frozen or near frozen on the rail. Usually a give up shot. he sold out a cut shot and lost the game.set match , underwear, car keys, and a jar of vicks vapo rub
 

J.R.

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John Morra definitely made contact with the cue ball.

I suppose the question is, "Was the cue ball already frozen to the pocket facing... and if it was frozen, then is it just an intentional foul to tap the cue ball again directly into the pocket facing or is Morra mandated by the DCC rules to tap the cue ball away from the frozen ball?"

First, a referee should have been summoned to first determine if the cue ball was in fact frozen to the pocket facing if it could not be determined by Morra and Louie. Second, definitely a referee should have been summoned by Louie if Morra was going to shoot directly into the cue ball if it was determined that the cue ball was not frozen to the pocket facing. Third, a clarification of trapping a cue ball to the pocket facing if the cue ball is already frozen to the pocket facing... can the shooter legally tap the cue ball into the pocket facing when the cue ball is already frozen to the pocket facing. If the shooter is not allowed to tap the frozen cue ball directly into the pocket facing, then he simply touches the cue ball away from the pocket facing.
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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J.R., good question. As with almost all general rules and many game rules they are incomplete, which leads to speculation and self interpretation of the rule. So once again a vague rule leaves us with speculation.
Sometimes you can get a further explanation of a rule by going to their definitions, but in this case, what is considered a Wedge is not defined in BCAPL.

When i was giving BCAPL rule suggestions, of which they used 4, I offered up Cushion Compression Shots, of which would of covered this. Very important everyday scenario that is not covered. Legal shot if stroked correctly.

So we are left with speculating that if a cb is frozen to a cushion and you stroke into it where it does not rebound off, it is wedging. That is my guess.
Whitey
 
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jtompilot

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John Morra definitely made contact with the cue ball.

I suppose the question is, "Was the cue ball already frozen to the pocket facing... and if it was frozen, then is it just an intentional foul to tap the cue ball again directly into the pocket facing or is Morra mandated by the DCC rules to tap the cue ball away from the frozen ball?"

First, a referee should have been summoned to first determine if the cue ball was in fact frozen to the pocket facing if it could not be determined by Morra and Louie. Second, definitely a referee should have been summoned by Louie if Morra was going to shoot directly into the cue ball if it was determined that the cue ball was not frozen to the pocket facing. Third, a clarification of trapping a cue ball to the pocket facing if the cue ball is already frozen to the pocket facing... can the shooter legally tap the cue ball into the pocket facing when the cue ball is already frozen to the pocket facing. If the shooter is not allowed to tap the frozen cue ball directly into the pocket facing, then he simply touches the cue ball away from the pocket facing.
From what I could see the OB rocked and returned to its original position, just a hair or two from the facing.
 

Tobermory

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Dan could have called over a ref, but he didn't. The ball was touching the rail, imo. Without any doubt, Morra touched the ball. Since it was already frozen, it wasn't an illegal wedge or an immoral trap, just an intentional foul. Dan appropriately did it right back, and they were both on one foul. End of story.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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The Derby City Rule; For those that are wondering about this, BCAPL general rules is what DCC went by when DCC wrote this rule.

Trapping or Wedging the Cue Ball
It is a foul if a player deliberately traps or wedges the cue ball in the jaw of a pocket. In addition to the foul penalty, the opponent receives cue ball in hand behind the head string.

BCAPL One Pocket Rule / US Open One Pocket Rule
5-12 Deliberately Trapping or Wedging the Cue Ball
It is a foul if you use an illegal stroke to deliberately attempt to trap or wedge the cue ball
in the jaw of a pocket. In addition to the one ball penalty for a foul, your opponent
receives ball in hand behind the head string

BCAPL - what is consider a legal stroke.
1-18 Legal Stroke
You must use a legal stroke. Any lifting, sideways, or other brushing motion of the cue,
such that the force that propels the cue ball does not primarily result from a forward
motion of the cue as defined under “Legal Stroke”, is a foul

Legal Stroke
Forward motion of the cue resulting in the cue tip striking the cue ball for only the
momentary time customarily associated with a normal shot. "Forward" means relative to
the cue itself, along the long axis of the cue and away from the butt, and has no relevance
to any part of the table or any relationship to the player or any part of their body

As we can see DCC eliminated the use of an illegal stroke in their OP game rule. DCC rule is what this thread is based upon.
So,
If you are playing in the US Open and by rule, if you stroke into a cue ball frozen in the jaw of the pocket and do not use an illegal stroke it can not be considered wedging. Except when we go to what is a legal stroke we see the cue tip can not remain upon the cue ball longer than customarily associated with a normal shot. So that is where you will get into possible trouble stroking straight into the frozen cue ball, because your cue tip is going to stay on the cue ball longer than allowed.

Note; a cushion compression shot is going to naturally hold the cue tip upon the cue ball longer any way for the cushion is compressing. Just be safe and tap on an angle in this scenario.

I just want to say I really appreciate Billy Jackets post and J.R. and John's thread of which he is really trying to educate us on being aware of a possible wedge occurring. For those posters that did not realize what John's thread was about, it has been an excellent lesson. Kudos!

I brightened up my screen and watched it in slow motion and it appears Morra contacted the ball. The ball moved, but it would also move if it was frozen to the rail. I think it was not quite frozen. But this is mute for no ball is not considered frozen unless called. But the real point of the thread is about wedging. I for one have learned quite a bit.

Obviously there needs to be a clear definition of what is considered a wedge in the jaw of the pocket. Just poor rule writing leads to speculation and self determination.

I think it is this: Wedge; with a ball in the jaw of the pocket, whether frozen to the jaw or not, and it is stroked into the rail and the cue tip holds it from rebounding it is then considered wedged. Quickly wrote, but you get the idea.

Whitey
 
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cincy_kid

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Sorry John, you were looking for wwyd from that corner, not so much did he touch the ball or not, right? I still tap off they tap first and let him do the first shot out of there. If I have to shoot I like Chris' 13 ball 3 tail shot.
 
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