J. Brumback vs. J. Parica 2011 D.C.C. #2

vapros

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Freddy, I was going to argue a bit here, but instead I will present a question. I'm thinking that a CB with running English and very little speed will jump off the first rail it comes to. Am I wrong about that? Can it not pick up speed, open the angle and go farther - all three?
 

wincardona

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fred bentivegna said:
Billy, you should know better than to challenge me on stuff like this. In this instance you are kinda right, but mostly wrong. Right hand english speeds up the cue ball, AFTER the cue ball contacts a rail. Sorta. Complimentary english (in this case, right eng) does picks up speed off of the cushions. Left hand (reverse) english kills speed after it contacts cushions. Or so it would appear.

And before Figeroa turns this over to Dr Dave on AZ, I had better clarify further. Right hand english doesnt really speed up the cue ball either! What it does do is pick up more english every time it contacts a cushion. What that does is help to increase the distance the cue ball will travel. Complimentary english adds distance not actual speed as in MPH.

Conversely, reverse english kills distance not speed.
My solution of what to do and why, was pertinent to the bank shot in question and one way to beat the kiss.

Even more elucidation. The point I was trying to make with slowing the cue ball down was actually directed towards the initial carom off of the object ball. The carom off of that 7 ball would proceed slower to the rail if there was english applied to the cue ball. Right or left hand english wouldnt matter either, as to the speed of approach to the first cushion. You wouldnt want to use reverse of course, because that wouldnt allow you to travel 3 rails and land behind the stack. (Conclusion: a no english carom off of the 7 ball would proceed faster to the rail then a carom with english)

That is the slowdown I was looking for that would allow me to beat the kiss on the bank.

Even after contacting the 1st cushion and picking up more english, the cue ball would proceed slowly to the 2nd rail because the cue ball would be traveling with side spin and roll, rather than pure roll, which would be much faster.

(I am sure everyone can relate to watching how slowly a spinning cue ball rolls between the rails-- but then how far it eventually travels.)

I knew all this of course, when I made my suggestion, but I thought I could just make it simple and say, "use right hand english to slow the cue ball down to beat the kiss." Bottom line, all who listened to me can beat that kiss.

Beard

I hope this post doesnt affect the Olive Oil I asked you to bring back for me from Europe.
I'm leaving for Europe in a few minutes so I have to run. Yes you have confused me, and right hand english will speed up the cue ball to the second rail as opposed to left or no english imo.

I'm gone have a nice summer every one.

Dr. Billy I.
 

fred bentivegna

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No.

No.

vapros said:
Freddy, I was going to argue a bit here, but instead I will present a question. I'm thinking that a CB with running English and very little speed will jump off the first rail it comes to. Am I wrong about that? Can it not pick up speed, open the angle and go farther - all three?

Simple test. Play a 3 cushion billiard with a load of complimentary english and watch the speed off of the 1st rail. Then play the shot with 1/2 tip follow, no english and see how much fast it travels off the rail. Just think about it, havent you seen a ball really juice up creeping around the table?

Beard

It does open the angle and it does travel farther, however. (with juice)
 

Frank Almanza

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fred bentivegna said:
Simple test. Play a 3 cushion billiard with a load of complimentary english and watch the speed off of the 1st rail. Then play the shot with 1/2 tip follow, no english and see how much fast it travels off the rail. Just think about it, havent you seen a ball really juice up creeping around the table?

Beard

It does open the angle and it does travel farther, however. (with juice)
We're going to get the physics guys chiming in on this one. The energy is there from the moment it leaves your cue tip, in one form or another. A combination of side spin and forward motion. Speed will only be gained if it's going downhill. Something to do with the conservation of energy. IMO
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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wincardona said:
I'm leaving for Europe in a few minutes so I have to run. Yes you have confused me, and right hand english will speed up the cue ball to the second rail as opposed to left or no english imo.

I'm gone have a nice summer every one.

Dr. Billy I.


Her is howe I see it Using reverse will kill the cue ball. All so just using straight high english will slow the cueball down.

Even though people dont realize it that is what happines. And if you use running english on the cueball. It will take off after hitting the rail.

And being a three coushion billiard player. That is were you realu learn that. Especialy on the old billiard tables.

And you can ask Mr 3 Coushion about what I said and see if he agrees with that or not. But in three coushion is were you realy learn this.

And we use too see who could get the most rails on a three coushion billiard table and we would bet on it. And get the tree coushion billiard balls in the box were the 3 coushion billiard balls were held.

And off course Mr three coushion and me won the money. And going 9 rails on the old three coushion billiard tables was no hangger.

But if you want too learn about angles. Get on a three coushion billiard table and you will learn a lot. And you can learn all the angles people have to clue what you can learn.

And all the limits on a angle and what too do too create a new angle .You dont even need three balls. Just one ball on a three coushion billiard table will teach you all the angles.

You cannot do this on a pool table because off the pockets. But you can do the same on a pool table. Just practice with the cueball. And then you will learn the limites too the angles.

And every table is a little different. But like if I ask you If you have the cueball by the side pocket and you are going three rails. Do you no the naxanum.

That you can get and were will the cue ball hit the second and thierd rail. These are what I call getting the limites. And I no Mr 3 coushion knowes the limites.

Do any off the pool players no. I dont think so If they do I would be schocket. Eferen would no because off his three coushion experence.

But just for a pool player to no. I would say they dont know because the never learned it.

And with extrime english and a little curve on the cue ball. You can duck a kiss playing banks that would be imposable too do shoothing the shot. In a normal way. The kiss will be thier 100 out of a 100 times.

But to use the extrime english and a little curve will change the path off the cueball. And on some kiss shots this is the only way too beat the kiss. And by using a lot off spine on the cueball with a little curve will get you position on a ball you cannot get no other way.

And I dont think pool players know howe to do that. Because they never practicet it and learned it. I could st up a extreme shot and showe you what I am talking about.

And I dont think one out off 10 pool players would no what to do too get that position on the ball. Its like walking a dog. You let the cueball do all the work and spine. And shoot it slow and let the cueball work and take the English.

And you can do it on a kiss bank shot. By haveing the cueball take a different bath. Too avoid the kiss. Or make the cueball jump on the rail and back on the table to duck the kiss.

THis all takes practice and a learning period too learn it. And very few if any players learnerd it or can do it. Thier is so much too learn. And what you can do. Ten life times wouldnt be enough.

But running english helps the cueball too go further. THen reverse and just hige ball. Prove it topo yourself. Dont belive me. Do it and see for youreself.

Learning is the greatest thing thier is to help you improve youre game and knowledge. Practce tell you learn it. Dont just give it away and give up tell you learn it.

And a real winner never qouits.
 

lfigueroa

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fred bentivegna said:
Billy, you should know better than to challenge me on stuff like this. In this instance you are kinda right, but mostly wrong. Right hand english speeds up the cue ball, AFTER the cue ball contacts a rail. Sorta. Complimentary english (in this case, right eng) does picks up speed off of the cushions. Left hand (reverse) english kills speed after it contacts cushions. Or so it would appear.

And before Figeroa turns this over to Dr Dave on AZ, I had better clarify further. Right hand english doesnt really speed up the cue ball either! What it does do is pick up more english every time it contacts a cushion. What that does is help to increase the distance the cue ball will travel. Complimentary english adds distance not actual speed as in MPH.

Conversely, reverse english kills distance not speed.
My solution of what to do and why, was pertinent to the bank shot in question and one way to beat the kiss.

Even more elucidation. The point I was trying to make with slowing the cue ball down was actually directed towards the initial carom off of the object ball. The carom off of that 7 ball would proceed slower to the rail if there was english applied to the cue ball. Right or left hand english wouldnt matter either, as to the speed of approach to the first cushion. You wouldnt want to use reverse of course, because that wouldnt allow you to travel 3 rails and land behind the stack. (Conclusion: a no english carom off of the 7 ball would proceed faster to the rail then a carom with english)

That is the slowdown I was looking for that would allow me to beat the kiss on the bank.

Even after contacting the 1st cushion and picking up more english, the cue ball would proceed slowly to the 2nd rail because the cue ball would be traveling with side spin and roll, rather than pure roll, which would be much faster.

(I am sure everyone can relate to watching how slowly a spinning cue ball rolls between the rails-- but then how far it eventually travels.)

I knew all this of course, when I made my suggestion, but I thought I could just make it simple and say, "use right hand english to slow the cue ball down to beat the kiss." Bottom line, all who listened to me can beat that kiss.

Beard

I hope this post doesnt affect the Olive Oil I asked you to bring back for me from Europe.


Anyone with a last name like Bentivegna should be able to handle spelling F-i-g-u-e-r-o-a without getting lost :)

And I know what you were trying to say and will keep the nerds leashed.

Lou Figueroa
 

fred bentivegna

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Sorry

Sorry

lfigueroa said:
Anyone with a last name like Bentivegna should be able to handle spelling F-i-g-u-e-r-o-a without getting lost :)

And I know what you were trying to say and will keep the nerds leashed.

Lou Figueroa

I keep forgetting the U, Lou. But I promise not to forget YOU, Lou.

Beard
 

treeMan

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IMO, to be accurate (nerd alert), a spinning cue ball can pick up "linear speed", i.e. mph, when rotational energy in the cue ball gets converted into linear energy through the reactionary force of contact with the rail.

Now the cue-ball loses some mph every time it hits the cushion (of course also when rolling but I am talking about what happens off the cushion only). The difference between how much mph is lost by the collision and how much is gained by rotational-to-linear conversion will determine if there is a net gain or loss in mph.

Any mph gains or of course very small.

tree

vapros said:
Freddy, I was going to argue a bit here, but instead I will present a question. I'm thinking that a CB with running English and very little speed will jump off the first rail it comes to. Am I wrong about that? Can it not pick up speed, open the angle and go farther - all three?
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Frank Almanza said:
We're going to get the physics guys chiming in on this one. The energy is there from the moment it leaves your cue tip, in one form or another. A combination of side spin and forward motion. Speed will only be gained if it's going downhill. Something to do with the conservation of energy. IMO
Frank,

Although I know as much about physics as the Duck knows about good booze or fine-bootied women let me give my opinion as to your contention that "speed will only be gained if it's going downhill":You may be confusing speed (velocity) with energy and/or linear (normal) momentum and/or angular momentum. A ball can be spinning in place and never move from point 'A' to point 'B' but let that same highly-spinning ball touch a rail and it's speed will be increased, relative to point 'A' and point 'B'. Let that same highly-spinning ball barely creep into a billiard table corner and it will come out at a much higher relative speed than it entered the corner with but it will not gain energy.

I think it would be correct to say that the cueball cannot gain or lose energy (after being struck) unless acted upon by other forces such as gravity, friction, atmospheric resistance, or a drunk bumping the table but it can certainly gain or lose speed. The total energy of a closed system (balls on a table) remains constant, that is to say that unless more energy is input the cueball cannot gain energy after being struck but it can go faster or slower.

Let me give one example that I think may help people envision this: Imagine a player shooting the cueball away from him with almost a full-masse draw stroke. The cueball takes off at a high rate of speed and then slows down maybe 8 feet down table as the draw takes hold. Then it starts back towards the player slowly until the full draw grabs the cloth and the ball gains speed and travels back to the player. The cueball has changed speed at least 4 times after being struck but it never gained or lost energy, loosely speaking.

But I've been wrong before:eek: :p :D . I am waiting for the "propeller heads" to correct me as I love the science of the game but just don't quite understand it all.

Cowboy "apple fell on my head" Dennis
 
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Jimmy B

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treeMan said:
IMO, to be accurate (nerd alert), a spinning cue ball can pick up "linear speed", i.e. mph, when rotational energy in the cue ball gets converted into linear energy through the reactionary force of contact with the rail.

Now the cue-ball loses some mph every time it hits the cushion (of course also when rolling but I am talking about what happens off the cushion only). The difference between how much mph is lost by the collision and how much is gained by rotational-to-linear conversion will determine if there is a net gain or loss in mph.

Any mph gains or of course very small.

tree



Now that is what I was thinking but I could never say it in such an intelligent manner. We all know that we can shoot a severe masse shot and see the ball pick up tremendous speed but I would never worry or argue about such things. It would take some super genius to really know how to figure out exactly all these english, energy, rails, collision type of things and the guy probably wouldn't be able to shoot his way out of a wet paper bag so you see you have to balance these kinds of things in your mind and discard them and just go to the practice table and spend your Energy developing real world skills and like Artie says, you can spend several lifetimes and only scratch the surface of the mysteries of pool and billiards and One Pocket....
 

Frank Almanza

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Frank,

Although I know as much about physics as the Duck knows about good booze or fine-bootied women let me give my opinion as to your contention that "speed will only be gained if it's going downhill":You may be confusing speed (velocity) with energy and/or linear (normal) momentum and/or angular momentum. A ball can be spinning in place and never move from point 'A' to point 'B' but let that same highly-spinning ball touch a rail and it's speed will be increased, relative to point 'A' and point 'B'. Let that same highly-spinning ball barely creep into a billiard table corner and it will come out at a much higher relative speed than it entered the corner with but it will not gain energy.

I think it would be correct to say that the cueball cannot gain or lose energy (after being struck) unless acted upon by other forces such as gravity, friction, atmospheric resistance, or a drunk bumping the table but it can certainly gain or lose speed. The total energy of a closed system (balls on a table) remains constant, that is to say that unless more energy is input the cueball cannot gain energy after being struck but it can go faster or slower.

Let me give one example that I think may help people envision this: Imagine a player shooting the cueball away from him with almost a full-masse draw stroke. The cueball takes off at a high rate of speed and then slows down maybe 8 feet down table as the draw takes hold. Then it starts back towards the player slowly until the full draw grabs the cloth and the ball gains speed and travels back to the player. The cueball has changed speed at least 4 times after being struck but it never gained or lost energy, loosely speaking.

But I've been wrong before:eek: :p :D . I am waiting for the "propeller heads" to correct me as I love the science of the game but just don't quite understand it all.

Cowboy "apple fell on my head" Dennis
Pretty much what I was trying to say but not as technical as you said. I was refering to the fact that once the cue ball leaves your cue tip it will not gain anymore energy from that point on. A lot of that energy is in the form of angular rotation and will not manefest itself until it comes in contact to a rail or the felt of the table top. Eventually what slows it down is friction and gravity and the other things you mentioned..
 

Miller

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people at work must think i am crazy sitting in my cubicle and laughing to myself

Cowboy "apple fell on my head" Dennis :)

man, i don't think you're right.....:)
 

lll

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once you contact the q you give energy to the q
it could be spin energy (angular momentum)
or speed energy (linear momentum) or a combination of the 2
when the q comes to rest it has lost all the energy you gave it:)
if you take that widely spinning q thats moving slowly linearly
if it hits the rail where its english would be considered "running english"
it will definitely pick up speed relative to its prior linear speed
and therefore travel more distance:)
jmho
but what do i know:D
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Miller said:
people at work must think i am crazy sitting in my cubicle and laughing to myself

Cowboy "apple fell on my head" Dennis :)

man, i don't think you're right.....:)
I'm not right???:confused: You're the one sitting in your cubicle laughing:D

RBL
 

petie

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Anyone who has watched or played 3 cushion billiards very long will see a very beautiful shot in which the player stuns the cue ball with extreme side english and severe speed so that the object ball goes very fast and very far after the shot but the cue ball takes off very slowly to the first rail. The beauty of the shot is that when the cue ball hits the first rail, it accelerates moderately but very perceptiby toward the second rail. When it hits the second rail, it picks up speed on it's way to the third rail. Upon hitting the third rail it now accelerates much more and continues to spin inexorably to the second object ball for the billiard. If you've never seen it, you owe it to yourself. Some of you, I am reasonably sure, have actually shot it and made it.
 

MARK..HOU TX

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petie said:
Anyone who has watched or played 3 cushion billiards very long will see a very beautiful shot in which the player stuns the cue ball with extreme side english and severe speed so that the object ball goes very fast and very far after the shot but the cue ball takes off very slowly to the first rail. The beauty of the shot is that when the cue ball hits the first rail, it accelerates moderately but very perceptiby toward the second rail. When it hits the second rail, it picks up speed on it's way to the third rail. Upon hitting the third rail it now accelerates much more and continues to spin inexorably to the second object ball for the billiard. If you've never seen it, you owe it to yourself. Some of you, I am reasonably sure, have actually shot it and made it.
Petie.. I agree, that is special .. more or less the same principle as a dragster startin out slowly with spinnig wheels very fast and gaing traction as the arrow of time moves forward .. each second gains more tracton then goes faster then gains more traction....
P.S. I failed to mention it's only 100% accurate in a vacuum
 
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MARK..HOU TX

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lll said:
once you contact the q you give energy to the q
it could be spin energy (angular momentum)
or speed energy (linear momentum) or a combination of the 2
when the q comes to rest it has lost all the energy you gave it:)
if you take that widely spinning q thats moving slowly linearly
if it hits the rail where its english would be considered "running english"
it will definitely pick up speed relative to its prior linear speed
and therefore travel more distance:)
jmho
but what do i know:D
I think your on to somethin Professor Larry .. Until QB makes contact with another object that is not in motion relative to itself .. It has no energy , it has POTENTIAL ENERGY.. :)
P.S. I failed to mention it's only 100% accurate in a vacuum
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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MARK..HOU TX said:
I think your on to somethin Professor Larry .. Until QB makes contact with another object that is not in motion relative to itself .. It has no energy , it has POTENTIAL ENERGY.. :)
P.S. I failed to mention it's only 100% accurate in a vacuum
So is the cueball moving or stationary when it comes in contact with "another object that is not in motion relative to itself"?

If it has no energy until contact, as you stated, what provides the impetus to propel it toward contacting another object that is not in motion relative to itself?

If it's moving it has kinetic energy, linear momentum and if it's spinning about it's own axis it possesses angular momentum.

All objects with mass possess potential energy.

Dennis
 

lll

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Cowboy Dennis said:
So is the cueball moving or stationary when it comes in contact with "another object that is not in motion relative to itself"?

If it has no energy until contact, as you stated, what provides the impetus to propel it toward contacting another object that is not in motion relative to itself?

If it's moving it has kinetic energy, linear momentum and if it's spinning about it's own axis it possesses angular momentum.

All objects with mass possess potential energy.

Dennis
i shouldnt answer for mark but my responce is the following
all the balls are at rest. you come to the table
your cue stick hits the cue ball it gives the q energy
that is
" the impetus to propel it toward contacting another object that is not in motion relative to itself":eek:
the moderator may have to move this thread to azbilliards .com:D
 

Cowboy Dennis

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lll said:
i shouldnt answer for mark but my responce is the following
all the balls are at rest. you come to the table
your cue stick hits the cue ball it gives the q energy
that is
" the impetus to propel it toward contacting another object that is not in motion relative to itself":eek:
the moderator may have to move this thread to azbilliards .com:D
lll,

That is not what Mark said. He said "Until QB makes contact with another object that is not in motion relative to itself .. It has no energy , it has POTENTIAL ENERGY..".

This is obviously wrong.

As to your last point about the All-Zaniness site; It's a long hot summer and everybody's bored:) .

Dennis
 
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