💡 First Post 💡 The BEST One Pocket skill is....

[lfigueroa]

My friend, Tom, you make good points as usual. But I would say necessity is the mother of invention. Tony shoots those shots to make up for his only great but not elite shooting. If he didn't take chances, he couldn't win. So he finds himself on the wire, operating without a net. Dennis, Busty and Fedor don't need it, so they don't risk it. Alex can play any style but usually embraces the grind. If Tony shot like Dennis, you wouldn't see him take those chances. No need. To see a great shooter press the envelope too often, you need only watch Corey Deuel. Great player, but loses games he should win by taking unnecessary risks at the wrong time.

Corey sees "dead people (balls)" lol.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Hey Lou and Joe, Sure, if you happen to be endlessly searching for wild shots you will find them. I would call that a runaway imagination. Solid players must discriminate as to the best shot according to the situation at all times. The more shots your mind can conjure, the more options available, the more weapons a player has. No one is suggesting that just because an imaginative shot comes to mind that shot should be the one taken.
Joe, as you stated correctly Corey has a very fertile mind for interesting pool shots. That is not his problem. The problem stems from a failure to curb his appetite for many of these more risky shots. And Lou, running balls like water sometimes includes finding an imaginative shot which can be played with a high degree of safety. It's all in the knowing and in the ability to say no.
Tom

Not talking about "wild shots," Tom.

I'm sure Tony tries to consider all aspects of a shot. But more often than not, when he or another player is shooting an unorthodox shot they're putting speed on the CB and at least one OB (usually more) are in motion. Sometimes they're squatting the CB but often they're trying to move the CB somewhere else on the table you wouldn't automatically expect it to be, which ups the risk quotient.

And I would disagree about your assertion concerning running balls. If you have well rounded pool experience, as guys like Alex and Dennis have, you play patterns where one shot almost naturally leads to the next.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Tom Wirth]

Okay Lou, You have the last word. Thanks for the dialog.
Tom

 

[lfigueroa]

Okay Lou, You have the last word. Thanks for the dialog.
Tom

OK, Tom.

Always happy to have an intelligent discussion about the game.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Bigkat]

Generally speaking, “imaginative” shots inherently come with the downside of higher levels of risk.

One goes and you’re a wunderkin. It doesn’t go and to quote Danny, “You sleep in the street.” However, one thing is now true: modern era players have expanded the scope of what is considered standard play. There are now safeties, banks, and kicks that old school players would have frowned on and perhaps charitably called “imaginative” but are now in most player’s standard repertoire.

As has been alluded to, there’s a lot to be said for just being able to consistently play basic strategy and run balls like water. The one-in-fiver, maybe not so much.

Lou Figueroa

I like your point on the new advancing player, playing shots that would have been considered too risky back in the day. But are somewhat standard today. That has definitely changed the game.

 

[Bigkat]

They may not have the imagination of some, but they are just as elite because of their knowledge and ball running. Their high gear is not quite like Tony when it is all working, but day in, day out, they'll beat Tony because their average will beat Tony's average.
Joe, what you say certainly has merit but consider this. The shot making skills of Alex, Dennis, Busty, SVB, and Fedor all exceed that of Tony, but the flip side to that is that Tony's imagination keeps him competitive with any of those players. Now suppose all or any of the afore mentioned players learned to develop an imagination for the game to equal Tony's, how would that impact the quality of their game? This is all about knowing how things work in the world of dynamics and applying that knowledge in unique ways. A fertile pool and billiard imagination is like looking into a microscope for the first time. What wonders await on the practice table if only we pay attention to everything that's happening and figuring out the why? It is the mathematical side to One Pocket. There is always room to improve this area of a player's game. On the other hand, improving one's shot making and cueing skills may not be so easy to improve upon.
One word of warning though, This imaginative thinking has a way of turning on you during game play. I'm sure we've all seen Tony and others play some hairbrained shot that only he knew what he was attempting. I've been there more times than I wish to remember. Yikes!
Tom

Mr. Wirth, I read your comments and I believe they are accurate. However, I believe a legitimate question is CAN IMAGINATION BE TAUGHT? OR IS THAT UNIQUE TO THE PERSON?

 

[lfigueroa]

Mr. Wirth, I read your comments and I believe they are accurate. However, I believe a legitimate question is CAN IMAGINATION BE TAUGHT? OR IS THAT UNIQUE TO THE PERSON?

I don’t know what Tom would say but here’s my take: you can definitely teach a player to look at the game differently, to include a more imaginative perspective.

However, that player must have certain base skills or it’s not happening. IOWs, said player must be able to do more than the basics and then, when you suggest they go for B rather than A, you have to be able to explain why they can have a modicum expectation of success executing the new plan.

What’s key, IMO, is being able to explain how to shoot the shot and its strategic upside and downside. In due course a player will become more accustomed to looking for similar opportunities and be able to assess the accompanying risks/benefits.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Bigkat]

I don’t know what Tom would say but here’s my take: you can definitely teach a player to look at the game differently, to include a more imaginative perspective.

However, that player must have certain base skills or it’s not happening. IOWs, said player must be able to do more than the basics and then, when you suggest they go for B rather than A, you have to be able to explain why they can have a modicum expectation of success executing the new plan.

What’s key, IMO, is being able to explain how to shoot the shot and its strategic upside and downside. In due course a player will become more accustomed to looking for similar opportunities and be able to assess the accompanying risks/benefits.

Lou Figueroa

Mr. Figueroa
I actually think we can dissect this even further sir. Because, a player that is a "run out machine" in rotation, may not necessarily ever get "imagination" because it's not a necessary tool to be effective in 9 ball (maybe 8ball). So, even after acquiring certain skills, I don't think it's automatic that the "imagination" comes... Thoughts

 

[Hardmix]

I think imagination/creativity grows with the players understanding of how balls interact with one another and the rails.

 

[Tom Wirth]

Inspiration begins with a strong understanding of a particular subject. Without knowledge there can be no inspired achievement that is based in reality. This holds particularly true in pool where there is a need to; as Hardmix stated, understand how balls interact with one another and the rails.

Consider each factor that must be calculated in even the simplest of bank shots; speed, angle, spin, and proximity of the object ball to the principle cushion involved. Humidity, cleanliness of the balls, and the condition of the cloth may also be factors that must be considered. Each of these factors must be analyzed and applied to the shot. Is this inspiration? Probably not if the shooter has seen and executed this shot before. Now take that same bank, and the shooter begins to apply his knowledge of how the balls interact with one another so as to control both the object ball and the cue ball in a variety of ways not before taken or considered. At least by this shooter. This shooter is now taking this knowledge and manipulating it to suit his purpose. This now is inspiration. This was a very simple example but how far can this thinking be taken? That answer is in the mind of the observer. What about far more complex situations? How can we find inspirational solutions from situations that involve a multitude of factors? The answer is in taking an idea and breaking its complexity into a series of elementary events. And what if the execution of this idea fails? Is it any less inspired? Is inspiration contingent on success?
You tell me.

Tom

 

[NH Steve]

Great points, all around! I was about to say -- "imagination" -- you know it when you see it, like watching Efren about 15 years ago, for many examples. But then I realized, I believe there are many times when we DON'T EVEN SEE IT, despite the fact it happened right before our eyes. There is a funny thing about humans, we only truly grasp what we are ready to grasp, and it has to be at the right level of our own personal learning curve -- otherwise that great pearl of wisdom might happen, but is just as quickly gone with the wind, for those of us not quite ready to be receptive to that level of knowledge. Watching the likes of Efren, Corey, Tony, Raphael Martinez, etc., we need to keep our eyes wide open, our mind wide open, and then try to open our inner eye a bit more too, it there is such a thing...

Good minds, here, thank you!

 

[lfigueroa]

Mr. Figueroa
I actually think we can dissect this even further sir. Because, a player that is a "run out machine" in rotation, may not necessarily ever get "imagination" because it's not a necessary tool to be effective in 9 ball (maybe 8ball). So, even after acquiring certain skills, I don't think it's automatic that the "imagination" comes... Thoughts

Even at 9ball there is most often an opportunity to use more than one pocket to sink any particular ball -- this of course becomes even more so as the run progresses.

So IMO there is still plenty of room for imagination, or perhaps analysis, to decide what position play to what pocket offers the bestest path to complete any given run out. Beyond that, I think the majority of players nowadays sufficiently dabble enough in 9ball and 1pocket to be able to blend their talents from both games. Add it 14.1 and/or banks I think you get an even more interesting approach to the game.

Lou Figueroa

 

[unoperro]

Even at 9ball there is most often an opportunity to use more than one pocket to sink any particular ball -- this of course becomes even more so as the run progresses.

So IMO there is still plenty of room for imagination, or perhaps analysis, to decide what position play to what pocket offers the bestest path to complete any given run out. Beyond that, I think the majority of players nowadays sufficiently dabble enough in 9ball and 1pocket to be able to blend their talents from both games. Add it 14.1 and/or banks I think you get an even more interesting approach to the game.

Lou Figueroa

Give 8 ball the credit it deserves. Watch players like SVB, Cory ,Melling play 8 ball and you will see every billiard shot.

 

[jtompilot]

Great points, all around! I was about to say -- "imagination" -- you know it when you see it, like watching Efren about 15 years ago, for many examples. But then I realized, I believe there are many times when we DON'T EVEN SEE IT, despite the fact it happened right before our eyes. There is a funny thing about humans, we only truly grasp what we are ready to grasp, and it has to be at the right level of our own personal learning curve -- otherwise that great pearl of wisdom might happen, but is just as quickly gone with the wind, for those of us not quite ready to be receptive to that level of knowledge. Watching the likes of Efren, Corey, Tony, Raphael Martinez, etc., we need to keep our eyes wide open, our mind wide open, and then try to open our inner eye a bit more too, it there is such a thing...

Good minds, here, thank you!

I remember playing Monster John about 25 years ago when I thought I knew how to play 1P. He played a few fabulous shots that I still don't know how in the hell he did it. So, "don't even see it" applies but also, I saw it but don't understand what just happened.

Today with all the YouTube videos and internet matches we can study all the Efren, Tony, Corey, shots over and over till maybe, we might be able to understand some of those incredible shots. I'm still trying to learn 1P.

 

[Eg9327]

One of the best things to happen to my 8 ball game was playing one pocket.

 

[Skin]

How do y'all break this "imaginative" shot down? My guess is Efren did not invent anything new on the spot but drew from 15b rotation and balkline/3c scenarios/concepts he was familiar with to piece the specifics of it together. However, did it all play out as he imagined it before he shot, or did something other than what he imagined happen and it just turned out great? He's the only one who knows.

 

[NH Steve]

How do y'all break this "imaginative" shot down? My guess is Efren did not invent anything new on the spot but drew from 15b rotation and balkline/3c scenarios/concepts he was familiar with to piece the specifics of it together. However, did it all play out as he imagined it before he shot, or did something other than what he imagined happen and it just turned out great? He's the only one who knows.

Honestly, I don't think he meant to catch that 2nd ball. But you know the line -- he "got lucky"

 

[BRLongArm]

Imagination: Understanding the possible. The deeper the understanding of what is possible, the more creative shots you will be able to perfect. I watch Roberto Gomez and the one aspect of his game that has made him a great player is his ability to find a shot in the stack that is usually a billiard combo that others did not see. He has the ability to manipulate the balls and make a shot to start his run. It is his gift. Once he makes the first shot, his expert shooting handles the rest. Now he doesn't have Corey's flair for the billiard shots. It is usually a combination into one or two balls and the ball slowly falls. But Roberto is probably the best at this shot outside of Corey. Corey's deep creativity flows from his straight pool background.

 

[Skin]

Honestly, I don't think he meant to catch that 2nd ball. But you know the line -- he "got luck"
_______________

I think maybe he was trying to go through the red stripe off those caroms to make the 9 (?, stripe by the hole), but the red stripe knocked the 9 away to mess it up. Before that, the cb was on a good line to sink the 9 and end up safe.

 

[vapros]

Imagination is by far the ultimate skill. We all pursue it, and the better players are the ones who progress best. I like to follow the likes of Jose Parica, Stephen King, Santos Sambajon and Walt Disney.