Testing your stroke

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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mr3cushion, I think you'll appreciate this!
I was playing a 1/4" close draw shot to review foul strokes when either using inside or outside English draw.
I set up the shot close to center table but to back cut the ob in the side pocket with inside english @ 1/4" draw. I was intending to bring the cb to the side rail and spin 3 rails around to make another ob in the corner.

But I happened to contact it "real good" whereas the cb caught a tremendous amount of draw off the ob and came flying into the side rail with a hell of a lot of speed, and came off on an angle to scratch in the cross kitty corner, but it came to a screeching halt about mid table. I stood in amazement and said; "wow, I never seen anything like that before".

As you know the tremendous amount of high generated on the cb transfers to low when coming off the rail, and it came to a screeching halt.

I was going to make it into a trick shot but kinda of forgot about it, and seeing Sayginer's first shot whereas his cb came to a halt, reminded me of it. Whitey
 

Patrick Johnson

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Patrick, I can refute every one of your "negative" statements.
My statements aren't meant to be negative; just factual.

I am willingly giving forth to members my knowledge so they can better make these shots, and it seems you are ridiculing me for that!
Sorry if it seems like I'm ridiculing you - it's not intentional, just ensuring our members get actual info rather than (understandably) mistaken impressions.

It is very simple; just try using two tips back-hand english on the center line vs. two tips back-hand on Whitey's 45 degree, and stroking hard at this depicted shot. You'll see that by using the center line the cb will squirt off a half ball, whereas my method will not! I trust members will work on this.
Again, the CB squirts whether you adjust for it or not. Adjusting your aim is what makes your shot work, not eliminating squirt. [EDIT: If you're saying that adding top spin to side spin seems to eliminate squirt, then there's another factual explanation for that: swerve is increased by adding topspin.]

Think of it like shooting an arrow on a windy day. If the wind is blowing from right to left, you have to aim a little to the right of your target in order to hit it. By changing your aim you didn't stop the wind - you just adjusted your aim to compensate for it. Squirt is exactly the same - it's always there for sidespin shots, but we adjust for it, consciously or not.

Since the outcome is about the same in this case, you might think this distinction doesn't matter - but it does. Your impression of how things "seem" might be good enough for this particular shot under these particular conditions, but can lead you astray in other situations. Knowing how things actually work (and how to adjust for them) will work in all situations.

pj
chgo
 
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mr3cushion

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Patrick, I can refute every one of your "negative" statements. I am willingly giving forth to members my knowledge so they can better make these shots, and it seems you are ridiculing me for that!

I'll share a little story, I had two very good players over to my house and I showed them 2 very high power position shots that I came up with 45 yrs. ago. One shot is all over the internet now, the other I do not think so yet. Well, the one player in his arrogance, said; " those shots are useless for they will never be used in a game ", and would not try them. The other player immediately wanted to learn them.

It is very simple; just try using two tips back-hand english on the center line vs. two tips back-hand on Whitey's 45 degree, and stroking hard at this depicted shot. You'll see that by using the center line the cb will squirt off a half ball, whereas my method will not! I trust members will work on this.

I honestly do not know if I am originating this concept, for I do not study shots on the internet. But, I have come up with a way to offset squirt when stroking hard. For me I think it is very exciting, I trust members will too. Whitey

Oh by the way the stripe is impossible to set perfectly vertical to the table and that is why it wiggles a little. It's not my stroke!
I had to jump in here Whitey, since I started the thread, don't lose any sleep over PJ's comments! His, 'Technical' bark is much worse than his actual, 'Playing' bite! It's pretty well known that, 98% of the, 'SPC' can only execute, 10-20% of what they spout! 'Analysis/Paralysis' is usually there downfall! So confused when it comes time to pull the trigger, they shake the table down! :sorry, whom ever you are, but, I've seen it a hundred times, mostly in tournaments, because almost 99% will NOT gamble on what they say they know!

I hate to say it, but, PJ's BEST game is arguing!
 

mr3cushion

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mr3cushion, I think you'll appreciate this!
I was playing a 1/4" close draw shot to review foul strokes when either using inside or outside English draw.
I set up the shot close to center table but to back cut the ob in the side pocket with inside english @ 1/4" draw. I was intending to bring the cb to the side rail and spin 3 rails around to make another ob in the corner.

But I happened to contact it "real good" whereas the cb caught a tremendous amount of draw off the ob and came flying into the side rail with a hell of a lot of speed, and came off on an angle to scratch in the cross kitty corner, but it came to a screeching halt about mid table. I stood in amazement and said; "wow, I never seen anything like that before".

As you know the tremendous amount of high generated on the cb transfers to low when coming off the rail, and it came to a screeching halt.

I was going to make it into a trick shot but kinda of forgot about it, and seeing Sayginer's first shot whereas his cb came to a halt, reminded me of it. Whitey
Whitey; the first shot by SS on the video is a, 'Force draw.' very difficult with the OB being so far off the 1st rail. The CB came to a dead stop because, the EXTREME draw on the CB and because of the force used to generate the final curve at the end, the CB just lost ALL the effect at one instance! Actually, it was pretty cool!
 

Patrick Johnson

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...don't lose any sleep over PJ's comments!
Of course not - don't even read them if you don't want to. They're intended solely to clarify the facts about what physically happens on a pool table - and only for those who are interested in that.

Notice, for instance, there are no personal comments.

PJ's BEST game is arguing!
This, on the other hand (from somebody who has never seen me play), is intended only to make trouble.

pj
chgo
 

mr3cushion

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Of course not - don't even read them if you don't want to. They're intended solely to clarify the facts about what physically happens on a pool table - and only for those who are interested in that.

Notice, for instance, there are no personal comments.


This, on the other hand (from somebody who has never seen me play), is intended only to make trouble.

pj
chgo
Patty, on the contrary, I've seen YOU play many times, against the ghost! YOU just don't know it! ;) I have eyes & ears everywhere! ;)

Not intended to make trouble, as YOU stated, "clarify facts!"

BTW, my comments were directed to, "Whitey."
 

mr3cushion

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Asking Steve to move this thread to Mem's ONLY!

Before it gets a little too Chicago! :D
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Patrick,
Although we are doing a test of stroke from mr3cushion's original post, we are getting a little off track. I will say I literally stroked hundreds of reverse english shots over four days before I posted. I would not in my mind post up something that is false. The stroke I posted works for me, and I would suggest to members to sit down and work on these most difficult shots for days tell it just comes natural, and figure out what works for them!

I use 5 different strokes on reverse english shots. 1. mr3cushion's stroke, 2. the back-hand on a 45 degree, 3. A hit and release of the stroke sideways, 4. The Hoppe Stroke, & 5. the Buddy Hall's stroke. I used 3 of these to make mr3cushion's test stroke shot.
Sometimes the cb squirts horribly on a shot, and you wonder where that came from, but it takes a lot of practice, and through practice I have significantly reduced these instances.

You can have the final say, but lets agree not to disagree anymore. Thanks for the discussion! Whitey
 

Patrick Johnson

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The stroke I posted works for me, and I would suggest to members to sit down and work on these most difficult shots for days tell it just comes natural, and figure out what works for them!
I couldn't agree more. I assume your stroke does what you say. I'm talking about how it does it.

pj
chgo
 

mr3cushion

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Whitey, since this thread is about shots that may improve your stroke and repertoire to run balls or get out of a trap.

I know i posted this in the, MO section, it's been awhile.

With the correct stroke and more importantly, 'speed' you can get on the balls around your opponents pocket! Playing with, 'Inside English', HLE.

Whitey, take a close look at the, 'follow-thru!'

Here's a difficult position to keep running the balls. Take note, that the CB is closer to the short rail than the 4 ball! A little, 'back cut.'

View attachment 23464

and video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTLClGCARD4
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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mr3cushion,
There is more to this shot than meets the eye! Since it is only a slight back cut and the 4 ball is fairly close to the cue ball, the 4 ball presents a lot of resistance to a follow through shot, for it is a fairly full hit, plus the tangent line the cb wants to travel, a wider angle, has to be overcome to narrow the angle to get shape. So if not stroked properly that cue ball is just going to bounce off the 4 ball and fall flat, like a weak punch, but you can see the cb with the high reverse fighting to over come this.

So this shot takes quite a bit of force, even though it appears mr3cushion is not using much due to his stroke, and using force plus english could easily throw off this shot, thus it has to be hit exact, for any slight over cut even though you could make the shot would lose the cue ball down the table.
The stroke has to be clean with an absolute level follow, otherwise any drop or dip of the tip as it contacts the cb will kill the whole shot. I compared your mechanics of grip, stance, and arm action with your trick shot mechanics and they have not changed over the years. Very nicely done!

I had a guy ask me once about a good player, and he said; "how does he gets so much stuff out of the shot, for it looks like he is stroking so softly? I said; "it's the stroke". But also knowing just how high and low you can stroke the cb really adds a lot.

For me trying to get a stroke back was very hard, and even when I thought it was ok, I knew it was not even close to being there. So I went to a lighter stick to force me to stroke the balls. Plus I learned from a student a stroking drill, so the combination of this has really helped a lot. The hardest part was not having an elbow point anymore, for now I had to use a lot of my upper arm to complete the stroke which was creating a dip at the tip when finishing the stroke, which causes a miss cue. I had to learn that my wrist has to release at the end of the stroke to maintain a level follow through. The stroking drill is to just stroke along side the cue ball using low, middle, and high stroke. Stroke slow and build up to fast, then stroke the cue ball, then stroke only. Continue this for 10 to 15 minutes. Take note of mr3cushion's wrist action & postion to finish the follow through, this is what you want. I finish this drill by stroking high and low shots within a 1/4" to test my stroke. The key to these shots, as with any shot, is to stay relaxed with a relaxed stroke, as you see in mr3cushion's trick shots, for he maintains a more upright relaxed position which transfers to the relaxed stroke in stroking these shots. You would not run a race without warming up, well this is how I warm up before ever going to the table to practice hitting balls. It makes pocketing balls so much easier!

You will realize as I did, just how low and high you can actually stroke the cb and not miscue as your stroke gets purer. It takes this pure high stroke to pull off this shot of mr3cushions! Whitey
 
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Patrick Johnson

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...if not stroked properly that cue ball is just going to bounce off the 4 ball and fall flat, like a weak punch

...it has to be hit exact

...You will realize as I did, just how low and high you can actually stroke the cb and not miscue as your stroke gets purer.
These are true statements.

People tend to overcomplicate "the stroke". "Stroked properly" just means hitting the exact spot on the CB that you intend to hit, at the right angle and speed. That's all that's needed for this shot - or any shot.

But that's harder than it sounds, especially at high speed - hence the need for good technique.

pj
chgo
 

mr3cushion

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These are true statements.

People tend to overcomplicate "the stroke". "Stroked properly" just means hitting the exact spot on the CB that you intend to hit, at the right angle and speed. That's all that's needed for this shot - or any shot.

But that's harder than it sounds, especially at high speed - hence the need for good technique.

pj
chgo
3% of the people that play cue games if that, can execute properly!
 

Patrick Johnson

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3% of the people that play cue games if that, can execute [a stroke] properly!
Such a simple thing to try to do - such a hard thing to do well.

And it's the holy grail of cue sports, so it's not that nobody's trying. That's why I think it's important that we offer clear and correct info.

pj
chgo
 

mr3cushion

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Such a simple thing to try to do - such a hard thing to do well.

And it's the holy grail of cue sports, so it's not that nobody's trying. That's why I think it's important that we offer clear and correct info.

pj
chgo
I'll wait, :frus...:frus...:frus
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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mr3cushion,
I took your shot to the table. I set the 4 ball one ball width off the cushion, and the cb 2" off the cushion with 5 inches edge to edge separation. This gave the shot a slight angle. I admit it took awhile but I was able to lay the cb right in there as you did.

Then I set it up with the 4 one ball width off the cushion with the cb 1-3/4" off the cushion with a 6" edge to edge gap between balls. This created more of a back cut, thus more angle to over come. I have to say it ate me up, and then I tensed up and then it really ate me up, dropping my elbow, miss cueing.

I said to myself; "you got to relax". And so I did and made the shot just as you did. I sure like when the cb slows down it starts curling back into the shape you need on the stripe. It sure is a good feeling to hit it just perfect!

I put in where I had the balls lying in case someone wants to duplicate this shot as I had it set up!

It is a real demanding shot, and a true test of a stroke. It requires a lot of reverse, a level stroke otherwise the cb hops, and correct Speed, as mr3cushion stated!
Thanks for posting this, it is really appreciated! Whitey
 

mr3cushion

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mr3cushion,
I took your shot to the table. I set the 4 ball one ball width off the cushion, and the cb 2" off the cushion with 5 inches edge to edge separation. This gave the shot a slight angle. I admit it took awhile but I was able to lay the cb right in there as you did.

Then I set it up with the 4 one ball width off the cushion with the cb 1-3/4" off the cushion with a 6" edge to edge gap between balls. This created more of a back cut, thus more angle to over come. I have to say it ate me up, and then I tensed up and then it really ate me up, dropping my elbow, miss cueing.

I said to myself; "you got to relax". And so I did and made the shot just as you did. I sure like when the cb slows down it starts curling back into the shape you need on the stripe. It sure is a good feeling to hit it just perfect!

I put in where I had the balls lying in case someone wants to duplicate this shot as I had it set up!

It is a real demanding shot, and a true test of a stroke. It requires a lot of reverse, a level stroke otherwise the cb hops, and correct Speed, as mr3cushion stated!
Thanks for posting this, it is really appreciated! Whitey
Whitey; I glad to see you have the initiative to broaden your cue skills! It can NEVER hurt, even if the position arises ONLY once! Then at least, you will know you have the REAL knowledge and confidence to play the shot when it counts!

I have a REALLY cute, 'kick shot' to get out of a terrible trap, the shooter needing to contact make the 15 ball.

Actually, when I diagrammed the shot, I should of made the,tough, 'kick' 2 cushions to the 15 ball, so you can come to play a good safety or, far enough to play the 3 ball next.

View attachment 23482

P.S. the reason for the stretch on this shot is, the table is a 5'x10' GCI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja8RfEaYIEg
 
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