Testing your stroke

mr3cushion

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I couldn't find ANY video of Jake Schaefer jr., but, I did find another video of Welker Cochran at the 924 Club in San Francisco.

The quality of the video is not great and no audio.

Maybe, 'Whitey' can give us an assessment of Cochran's stroke.

BTW, in that other video with Hoppe & Cochran, the officiator is Norman Bensinger, the owner of Bensingers in Chicago!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB-NQvO-css
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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mr3cusion,
Cockran's Stroke; What I see is the A-typical short bridge and compact stroke. I am not familiar with 3C billiard strokes of that era, but Cockran's bridge and stroke was used in exhaustion by the Hall of Famers straight pool players of that golden era. They sure could get a lot out of that compact short stroke!

In your post #41 video, I do agree you are stroking straight through on your close proximity shots. I plan on doing a slow motion of this stroke to prove you do not have to swerve the cue out of the way of the cue ball on close proximity shots. I got a couple of favorite close draw shots I have been wanting to share. On many of your shots you use a short bridge compact stroke, and get a lot out of it, just like Cockran.

At :38 / :50 / and 1:00 in your video you are doing a version of the Hoppe Stroke as I was attempting to describe. Whereas you line up on center with the bridge hand, and without moving the bridge hand the cue then strikes the cue ball off center apply the needed english to accomplish the shot. Your stroke does follow straight through except on one it does appear to swipe somewhat.
This is how I also apply english, and I would do the shots exactly the same way. Absolute correct stroking of the cb on your part!

Doc, in his post he thought Hoppe was under the illusion that swiping at the cue ball would add tremendous spin, and I would not personally 2nd. guess Hoppe, but on shots where he uses it and the cb travels a distance to the ob ball, yes he is putting a lot of spin on the cue ball, but mainly I believe he wants both; spin but mainly accuracy. For when you swipe at the cb it does not push it off line very readily. And with Hoppe growing up this way using this stroke he undoubtedly got very good at it.
I caught myself using this stroke the other day on a reverse english shot, and made it right in the hole, but it takes practice and I am not there yet, and I am no Hoppe of 60 yrs. doing this stroke! Whitey
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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mr3cushion,
@ 1:08 you do what I call the "Cowboy" Jimmy Moore draw shot, which is also a favorite shot of Mike Massey. I have done this shot in the past, but I am having real trouble with it now. I'll work on it using your compact stroke with slight bit of english. I just can not get the action!

@ 1:35 I did this shot in around '69 while practicing 9-ball. I had a ball frozen on the side rail at 2nd. diamond and could not go forward for shape because other balls blocked the cb path. So I had to draw the cb around the world just as you did for shape on a ball on the end rail. I went around showing players this shot, now of course its on the internet. Not saying I invented it, but I was self taught so I had to come up with something to get shape. It is probably a long known Billiard shot!

@ 2:13 your force follow jumping over the ball, is a way cool shot, I want to learn this one. It looks quite difficult. Way cool shot, and a way cool way to get out of the cb trap.

@:44 & 1:24 whereas you are contacting the ob on the opposite side but still forcing it in the other direction. I call this a misdirection shot, but anyway I just posted a few videos of this type of action on a wwyd that was posted by One Rock. So these are very useful shots to know!

Thanks for sharing these shots, I'll work on them! Whitey
 
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mr3cushion

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mr3cusion,
Cockran's Stroke; What I see is the A-typical short bridge and compact stroke. I am not familiar with 3C billiard strokes of that era, but Cockran's bridge and stroke was used in exhaustion by the Hall of Famers straight pool players of that golden era. They sure could get a lot out of that compact short stroke!

In your post #41 video, I do agree you are stroking straight through on your close proximity shots. I plan on doing a slow motion of this stroke to prove you do not have to swerve the cue out of the way of the cue ball on close proximity shots. I got a couple of favorite close draw shots I have been wanting to share. On many of your shots you use a short bridge compact stroke, and get a lot out of it, just like Cockran.

At :38 / :50 / and 1:00 in your video you are doing a version of the Hoppe Stroke as I was attempting to describe. Whereas you line up on center with the bridge hand, and without moving the bridge hand the cue then strikes the cue ball off center apply the needed english to accomplish the shot. Your stroke does follow straight through except on one it does appear to swipe somewhat.
This is how I also apply english, and I would do the shots exactly the same way. Absolute correct stroking of the cb on your part!

Doc, in his post he thought Hoppe was under the illusion that swiping at the cue ball would add tremendous spin, and I would not personally 2nd. guess Hoppe, but on shots where he uses it and the cb travels a distance to the ob ball, yes he is putting a lot of spin on the cue ball, but mainly I believe he wants both; spin but mainly accuracy. For when you swipe at the cb it does not push it off line very readily. And with Hoppe growing up this way using this stroke he undoubtedly got very good at it.
I caught myself using this stroke the other day on a reverse english shot, and made it right in the hole, but it takes practice and I am not there yet, and I am no Hoppe of 60 yrs. doing this stroke! Whitey
Whitey, Cochran does indeed have the, 'standard' grip and stroke for that era. He and some of the better players on the West coast, were taught by, Professor Lance Perkins, A guy that was snubbed by Hoppe and his approach to billiards.
 

Patrick Johnson

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...when you swipe at the cb it does not push it off line very readily.
Actually, swiping pushes the CB off line exactly the same as any stroke. Like every other squirt adjustment method, you're just changing the cue's line of attack so that "off line" is "on line" for the shot.

pj
chgo
 

mr3cushion

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A little more about, 'Professor Perkins.'

Professor Perkins was the foremost thinker in the science of billiards in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Perkins had been a merchant seaman who always sought out the best billiard players in every country he visited. After examining the techniques of great players all over the world, Perkins combined the best aspects of all the top players forms into one simple coherent style From one great player, Perkins took the grip, from another the best stance and from yet another he copied the best stroke and so on until he had created the most effective cueing method ever devised.

Perkins was the first person to seriously analyze the ergonomics of billiards with the idea of doing everything in the simplest most synergistically efficient way. Professor Perkins brought human engineering to the science of billiards.

It is self-evident that Perkins used 'Occam’s Razor' in devising his fundamentals. Occam’s Razor is a scientific principle stating: “The simplest procedure that reliably produces the desired results is always best.”


With this idea firmly in mind Perkins created a style of play capable of “making any conceivable shot.” The achievements of Lanson Perkins’s students proved the effectiveness of his style.

Professor Perkins held the opinion that any normally coordinated young person with a sincere desire and the willpower to play good billiards could be trained to world championship levels in a short time (2-4 years).

When Perkins voiced his ideas to reigning world champion, Willie Hoppe, Hoppe snapped back, “Champions are born, not made.” snubbing Professor Perkins.

But Hoppe forgot the years of training he received from his father and lost his memory of the daily lessons champion Maurice Daly provided whenever Hoppe did exhibitions at Daly’s room in New York City. Willie also received vital strategic instruction from the great Frank Ives in Pop Anson’s billiard room as a young lad. A season long tour with Jake Schaefer. Sr. provided solid grounding in how to play Championship billiards. Willie Hoppe was actually a very well trained player taught by many top players as a youngster.

Insulting Perkins began a feud that Willie Hoppe would live to regret.

A report in the March 28, 1914 issue of SPORTING LIFE shows the depth of the animosity that developed between Professor Perkins and Willie Hoppe:

“A ripple of laughter wafted through the little hall just as Hoppe reached 50 in his run. Willie heard some one in the audience snoring. He stopped and looked up, and lo and behold! It was no less a personage than Professor Lanson Perkins, who just at that moment was dreaming of the time when his brilliant pupil, Welker Cochran, would take the measure of this champion of champions.”

Perkins set out to train a World Champion with the specific goal of dethroning Willie Hoppe. In 1909 Perkins’s student Calvin Demarest, an amateur, beat Hoppe to win the World Professional 18.2 Balkline Championship. Worse was to come since Perkins was busy grooming Welker Cochran for professional play with the specific intent of driving Willie Hoppe into retirement.

Due to WW I, the first opportunity for Welker Cochran to demonstrate his skills in professional competition came in 1919. Cochran immediately put Hoppe on notice of his intentions by finishing second, with Willie winning the title.

We don’t know exactly what Hoppe thought about the appearance of Cochran in his billiard world, but Welker Cochran and Jake Schaefer, Jr. were soon beating Hoppe’s old records in every tournament.

The 1921 tournament did not go well for Hoppe. Young Jake Schaefer, Jr. another newcomer to world title play won the championship that year with Cochran finishing 3rd behind Hoppe.

Schaefer, Jr. won the 18.2 balkline honors from 1923-26 and Cochran lowered the boom on Hoppe in 1927. Willie never won another 18.2 tournament after 1927.

In the 1930 World 18.1 Balkline Championship, Cochran let out all the stops and beat Hoppe 3,600-2,815 with four runs exceeding the world high run record established by Frank Ives (140) with runs of 196, 176, 157 and 142.

Cochran set a record for the highest match average for 18.1 up to that date with a Grand Average of 32.43. Willie Hoppe didn’t play badly, he posted his highest 18.1 match average in his career (25.36). Cochran simply beat Hoppe’s best game into the ground.

Lanson Perkins died in 1916 and never got to see Cochran beat his feud rival in championship play. Nevertheless, we can be sure that Professor Perkins firmly believed that Cochran would eventually triumph over Hoppe. Perkins had seen young Cochran make prodigious runs in exhibitions and knew that Welker’s increasing ability would eventually result in world championship titles.

Cochran and Schaefer, Jr. dominated the balkline games so completely in the late 1920s that competition finally stopped except for a few challenge matches. Welker Cochran won the last 18.2 tournament in 1934 with Hoppe finishing 3rd behind Eric Hagenlacher.

After balkline died, Cochran became a six time World 3 Cushion champion who defeated Hoppe six out of nine times they competed for the World 3 Cushion title. Cochran was the only player to ever hold the World 3 Cushion and the World 18.2 Balkline titles at the same time. Welker Cochran won more than ten World Billiard Championships.

Welker Cochran dedicated his book SCIENTIFIC BILLIARDS : “To Professor Lanson W. Perkins Who took me in hand at the age of fourteen and taught me the fundamentals of billiards, I dedicate this volume with the fervent hope that it may be as helpful to my readers as his patient and kindly instructions were to me.”

I've adhered to the axiom of Occam's Razor my entire life playing 3C & Golf. Basically, "The least amount of effort creating the most amount of effect!"
 

Henry

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mr3cushion,
@ 1:08 you do what I call the "Cowboy" Jimmy Moore draw shot, which is also a favorite shot of Mike Massey. I have done this shot in the past, but I am having real trouble with it now. I'll work on it using your compact stroke with slight bit of english. I just can not get the action!

@ 1:35 I did this shot in around '69 while practicing 9-ball. I had a ball frozen on the side rail at 2nd. diamond and could not go forward for shape because other balls blocked the cb path. So I had to draw the cb around the world just as you did for shape on a ball on the end rail. I went around showing players this shot, now of course its on the internet. Not saying I invented it, but I was self taught so I had to come up with something to get shape. It is probably a long known Billiard shot!

@ 2:13 your force follow jumping over the ball, is a way cool shot, I want to learn this one. It looks quite difficult. Way cool shot, and a way cool way to get out of the cb trap.

@:44 & 1:24 whereas you are contacting the ob on the opposite side but still forcing it in the other direction. I call this a misdirection shot, but anyway I just posted a few videos of this type of action on a wwyd that was posted by One Rock. So these are very useful shots to know!

Thanks for sharing these shots, I'll work on them! Whitey
The first time I met Jimmy Moore was at the Corner Pocket in Albuquerque, I am practicing and we are talking and he says you want to see the shot that got me banned from the ring game in Johnson City. He puts a ball on the end rail and puts the object ball almost straight in and draws it back to the rail and the cue draws back to the rail and turns and goes straight down the rail to get straight in on the 9 ball on the rail. I had never seen anything like it, to this day I have never seen anyone hit the shot close to what Jimmy did.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Whitey, Cochran does indeed have the, 'standard' grip and stroke for that era. He and some of the better players on the West coast, were taught by, Professor Lance Perkins, A guy that was snubbed by Hoppe and his approach to billiards.
Like I said I am not familiar with 3cushion players stroke, but Jimmy Caras, & Joe Balsis for example they have that very compact stroke.
But in comparing Hoppe's stroke to Cockran's stroke, there is a stark difference. And your knowledge of the history of technique is remarkable, and it was amazing you had the opportunity to work with Perkins, he must of recognized your potential!
I was in Long Beach, ca. Paramount Billiards in '69 and they had some top 3 cushion players there. I was 18 and one of the old timers in seeing me stroke some 3 cushion came up to me and wanted to teach me. He said he was on the Brunswick team that toured with Hoppe. I wish I could remember his name, but he was a little wiry guy full of energy, probably in his 60's or older. I can not find out any info. on the Brunswick Billiard Team that toured the nation, not even a picture. But I did not take him up on it, and kicked myself every since. It looks like a lot of fun doing those high end billiard shots! And wow, having a masters degree in billiards would be of unmeasurable wealth in playing One Pocket. Whitey
 

mr3cushion

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Like I said I am not familiar with 3cushion players stroke, but Jimmy Caras, & Joe Balsis for example they have that very compact stroke.
But in comparing Hoppe's stroke to Cockran's stroke, there is a stark difference. And your knowledge of the history of technique is remarkable, and it was amazing you had the opportunity to work with Perkins, he must of recognized your potential!
I was in Long Beach, ca. Paramount Billiards in '69 and they had some top 3 cushion players there. I was 18 and one of the old timers in seeing me stroke some 3 cushion came up to me and wanted to teach me. He said he was on the Brunswick team that toured with Hoppe. I wish I could remember his name, but he was a little wiry guy full of energy, probably in his 60's or older. I can not find out any info. on the Brunswick Billiard Team that toured the nation, not even a picture. But I did not take him up on it, and kicked myself every since. It looks like a lot of fun doing those high end billiard shots! And wow, having a masters degree in billiards would be of unmeasurable wealth in playing One Pocket. Whitey
Whitey, :sorry if I miss related the story! I NEVER studied with Perkins! He died in 1916. The man who taught me me knew Jay Bozeman and Cochran, they related to him, Perkins's knowledge and in turn He taught some aspects to me in 1963...
 

Patrick Johnson

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The first time I met Jimmy Moore was at the Corner Pocket in Albuquerque, I am practicing and we are talking and he says you want to see the shot that got me banned from the ring game in Johnson City. He puts a ball on the end rail and puts the object ball almost straight in and draws it back to the rail and the cue draws back to the rail and turns and goes straight down the rail to get straight in on the 9 ball on the rail. I had never seen anything like it, to this day I have never seen anyone hit the shot close to what Jimmy did.
Takes a great stroke (which only means hitting right at the miscue limit with lots of power). Mike Massey makes it look like a walk in the park:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59amcNEN0Tg

pj
chgo
 

mr3cushion

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Cowboys 3 rail draw shot is even more impressive;)
IMHO, Mike's draw is, definitely more difficult that the, Jimmy Moore, '2 cushions on 1' draw shot! Mike can only make his shot only by applying, straight EXTREME 6 O'clock English! Where as in the Jimmy Moore draw, it can be made with, just draw (most difficult way), LHE or even RHE to make the CB hug the cushion better!

This is a little easier version of Jimmy's draw shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-pji5JqWDc
 
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baby huey

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I came back to 3C in the last five years or so after making a friend who saw me practicing 3C and wanted lessons. He couldn't spell 3C and now averages about .40 and for him that's pretty good. I began watching 3C on You Tube and I saw some old Sang Lee matches and wow was I impressed. Then, Bloomdahl and double wow and I thought he was the best I'd ever seen and now Caudron has taken it a step further. This guy plays position like I've never seen and I heard expert commentators say that he plays position on about 70% of his shots while all the others are at about 50% max. His draw shots simply are the cats meow and sometimes in exhibitions he pulls out all the stops and really lets his stroke do the talking. On another note, watch how he meticulously he pays attention to his tip. At first I thought it was nervous energy coming to the surface but I think there is so much at stake in these tournaments that any loss of shot like a miss cue can cost you points and perhaps the event.
 

Patrick Johnson

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Semih can hit 'em!

He can also just play. I watched his 20-point run at Chris's many years ago - at the time (don't know any more) it was the North American high tournament run. I think you might have played in that one, Mr3.

We also got Blomdahl (or was it Jaspers?) to play some 9-ball - not bad!

pj
chgo
 

mr3cushion

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Semih can hit 'em!

He can also just play. I watched his 20-point run at Chris's many years ago - at the time (don't know any more) it was the North American high tournament run. I think you might have played in that one, Mr3.

We also got Blomdahl (or was it Jaspers?) to play some 9-ball - not bad!

pj
chgo
I did play, it was 1998. In our head up match, I beat Sayginer 43-38. He was a VERY unhappy camper! I also beat the Belgian Champ. Francis Forton, and Pedro 25-7 to knock him out of the finals! I also had R. Ceulemans and Caudron beaten, but, lost to RC 50-38 and FC 43 -38!

In that same tournament, Jaspers had me, 24-0 in the first two innings, 14 then 10!
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Whitey's 45 degree no squirt shot!

Whitey's 45 degree no squirt shot!

On my post #62, I said; that to use the Hoppe Stroke is not necessarily to apply more english but to be more accurate. Since, I found two videos that Dr. Dave speaks favorably about the stroke in offsetting squirt. Type in; Billiards, Swoop Stroke Experiment, and also will come up Amazing back-hand Swoop.
I by no means am promoting this stroke, it takes practice! I've been doing it for a few years now and have pretty good luck.

But there is a better way, and I do not believe you will find this on the internet, not that I have looked. This takes squirt to a whole nether level of understanding.

Set the ob 1 ball width off the 2nd. diamond left side cushion (foot end) and put the cb on the head spot. Aim directly at the ob to make it with exactly center ball "then without any movement whatsoever of the bridge hand", move the tip 1/2 tip up and to the right on a 45 degree angle. Now stroke straight through cb on that slight angle to pocket the ball in the hole with enough speed to go three rails around the table to make position on a ball on the head rail. The cue ball should go absolutely straight to the target with no squirt! I use an 8" to 9" bridge, do not use a longer bridge.

Now! If you want to stroke it harder which will make it squirt quite a bit when stroked in the same spot on the cue ball, I then aim the same with center ball, but now you have to stroke higher on the 45 degree angle, say two tips. This will offset the squirt! It must be stroke hard for if you stroke it at the same speed it will hit the ob very thick by actually curving into the ob instead of squirting away! "this is it, how to solve squirt when hitting hard".
It can be stroke the same way with 1/2 tip on 45 degree below center if you want to shorten up the 3 rail for different shape. I think of the cb as a clock and I would be striking it at half way between 12 & 3 and so forth.

Now, take a lone stripe ball and set the stripe strip straight up vertical to the table and stroke it with center ball, you'll notice that the stripe wiggles a little as the ball rolls. Now do the same but stroke it with 1/2 tip up on a 45 degree off center and you will see a whole different action. The cb is rotating on a different axis which offsets squirt.

I believe that somewhere between 50-75% of inside reverse english shots could be stroke with 1/2 tip off center on a 45 degree angle. I should of just make a video of this, and I will. I hope this works for you and is helpful! I wish I had help on this when I was starting out! Whitey
 
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Patrick Johnson

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On my post #62, I said; that to use the Hoppe Stroke is not necessarily to apply more english but to be more accurate. Since, I found two videos that Dr. Dave speaks favorably about the stroke in offsetting squirt. Type in; Billiards, Swoop Stroke Experiment, and also will come up Amazing back-hand Swoop.
That's a (pretty obvious) joke by Dave. He doesn't really endorse a swoop stroke.

Set the ob 1 ball width off the 2nd. diamond left side cushion (foot end) and put the cb on the head spot. Aim directly at the ob to make it with exactly center ball "then without any movement whatsoever of the bridge hand"...
In other words, using backhand English...

...move the tip 1/2 tip up and to the right on a 45 degree angle. Now stroke straight through cb on that slight angle to pocket the ball in the hole with enough speed to go three rails around the table to make position on a ball on the head rail. The cue ball should go absolutely straight to the target with no squirt!
It "goes absolutely straight" on the squirt line - which is also the target line if you've adjusted your aim correctly for squirt. (P.S. It only "goes absolutely straight" if you hit it hard enough so swerve doesn't have time to happen.)

Now, take a lone stripe ball and set the stripe strip straight up vertical to the table and stroke it with center ball, you'll notice that the stripe wiggles a little as the ball rolls.
Not if you hit it dead center. If it "wiggles" your stroke's a little off.

Now do the same but stroke it with 1/2 tip up on a 45 degree off center and you will see a whole different action. The cb is rotating on a different axis which offsets squirt.
The axis of rotation doesn't "offset squirt" - aim compensation (in this case using backhand English) does that.

pj
chgo
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Patrick, I can refute every one of your "negative" statements. I am willingly giving forth to members my knowledge so they can better make these shots, and it seems you are ridiculing me for that!

I'll share a little story, I had two very good players over to my house and I showed them 2 very high power position shots that I came up with 45 yrs. ago. One shot is all over the internet now, the other I do not think so yet. Well, the one player in his arrogance, said; " those shots are useless for they will never be used in a game ", and would not try them. The other player immediately wanted to learn them.

It is very simple; just try using two tips back-hand english on the center line vs. two tips back-hand on Whitey's 45 degree, and stroking hard at this depicted shot. You'll see that by using the center line the cb will squirt off a half ball, whereas my method will not! I trust members will work on this.

I honestly do not know if I am originating this concept, for I do not study shots on the internet. But, I have come up with a way to offset squirt when stroking hard. For me I think it is very exciting, I trust members will too. Whitey

Oh by the way the stripe is impossible to set perfectly vertical to the table and that is why it wiggles a little. It's not my stroke!
 
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