Testing your stroke

mr3cushion

Suspended
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,062
This "swooping/swiping" technique has been discussed a lot - the general conclusion is that it doesn't add anything to the spin you can get with a straight stroke (and of course it reduces stroke accuracy).

Here's a quote from Dr. Dave's "resource page" on swoop/swipe stroking:



Sometimes what looks like a swoop/swipe stroke is actually a "fouette" stroke, which is a technique for avoiding a double hit foul when using extreme English in very close CB/OB quarters - I think Hoppe's stroke in your video may be an example of that.

pj
chgo
Pat, there is absolutely NO reason to, 'swoop or swerve' on close, (1/8"-1/4") 'Force-Follow or Force Draw!' Which I demonstrate in the this video from 1983! Taken at 20th Century Billiards & Bowl on a Anniversary Carom table/cloth 6 months old/no heated slate/no silicon!

Take note of these types of shot at: 0:22/0:28/1:14/2:07/2:20. In ALL of the tight close follows and draws not once do "I" swoop or swerve the stroke! Straight-thru on one plane thru the CB!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQvxNUWPjBg
 

Patrick Johnson

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
1,440
So above I mention a, 'Secret' I intentionally left out of the explanation.

...

'...Grip Pressure' at the point of contact on the CB!

...

... the grip pressure I feel I need at the impact of the CB to impart the correct effect on the CB!
Different strokes...

I've always heard that if you could "throw" the cue at the CB (grip hand completely off the cue at moment of impact with OB) with accuracy you can produce the same effect possible with a gripped cue.

In fact some instructors teach it.

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
1,440
Pat, there is absolutely NO reason to, 'swoop or swerve' on close, (1/8"-1/4") 'Force-Follow or Force Draw!' Which I demonstrate in the this video from 1983! Taken at 20th Century Billiards & Bowl on a Anniversary Carom table/cloth 6 months old/no heated slate/no silicon!

Take note of these types of shot at: 0:22/0:28/1:14/2:07/2:20. In ALL of the tight close follows and draws not once do "I" swoop or swerve the stroke! Straight-thru on one plane thru the CB!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQvxNUWPjBg
I've always loved that vid, Mr3 - great stuff!

But whether or not you swoop to avoid double hits, others definitely do (rightly or wrongly, consciously or not). I suspect that's what Hoppe was doing in that clip of his.

pj
chgo
 

gulfportdoc

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Messages
9,483
I've always loved that vid, Mr3 - great stuff!

But whether or not you swoop to avoid double hits, others definitely do (rightly or wrongly, consciously or not). I suspect that's what Hoppe was doing in that clip of his.
pj chgo
I can't believe I never noticed Hoppe's "brushing" stroke before! My guess is that he had the mistaken believe that it imparted more spin on the CB.

But he had a powerful stroke, no matter what he did. Look at his follow through..:cool:

~Doc
 

mr3cushion

Suspended
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,062
Different strokes...

I've always heard that if you could "throw" the cue at the CB (grip hand completely off the cue at moment of impact with OB) with accuracy you can produce the same effect possible with a gripped cue.

In fact some instructors teach it.

pj
chgo
The only element of playing the cue games a player has is their COMPLETE control over the cue tip with the grip hand! I doubt if any top pro, unless they were taught this incorrect technique, IMHO at a very young age, and can't break the habit would use it!

Some, "Instructors" are NOT REAL instructors!
 

Patrick Johnson

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
1,440
The only element of playing the cue games a player has is their COMPLETE control over the cue tip with the grip hand! I doubt if any top pro, unless they were taught this incorrect technique, IMHO at a very young age, and can't break the habit would use it!

Some, "Instructors" are NOT REAL instructors!
I have no firsthand knowledge, but here's what Fran Crimi (a past top female player and current instructor) says about it:

Releasing the cue prior to impact avoids the actions that cause the miss. Two players who I know released the cue fairly often were Efren Reyes and Nick Varner. I'm sure there were more, and I do it sometimes, myself
pj
chgo
 

mr3cushion

Suspended
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,062
I have no firsthand knowledge, but here's what Fran Crimi (a past top female player and current instructor) says about it:



pj
chgo
Listen, Lee Trevino & Jim Furyk had one of the most, 'unconventional' swings in Golf and was a TOP player for many years! It's all what a player gets comfortable with, in spite of it not being the norm or classic accepted method!
 
Last edited:

Dennis "Whitey" Young

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
1,340
This "swooping/swiping" technique has been discussed a lot - the general conclusion is that it doesn't add anything to the spin you can get with a straight stroke (and of course it reduces stroke accuracy).

Here's a quote from Dr. Dave's "resource page" on swoop/swipe stroking:



Sometimes what looks like a swoop/swipe stroke is actually a "fouette" stroke, which is a technique for avoiding a double hit foul when using extreme English in very close CB/OB quarters - I think Hoppe's stroke in your video may be an example of that.

pj
chgo
I beg to differ very much so! You'll see Hoppe use this stroke on regular shots, being close to the ob (within a 1/4" or so) has nothing to do with it. I can stroke absolutely straight through a 1/4" close proximity shot without any fouette stroke and get the same results. This is how Raymond Ceuleman does it. I am going to post a video of an absolute straight follow through on this shot.

Here is my take; we all know that inside reverse english pushing the cb. I feel that players adjust their aim for the push no matter what method they use.

Here is a true test: Mark the position of the balls, and set up the ob @ the 1 diamond side rail and 1 diamond end foot rail, and place the cb on the head string 1-1/2 diamond off the side rail to back cut the ob on about a 40 degree angle using inside reverse english.

Now aim at the ob to make it with center ball then keep the exact same parallel cue angle but move the cue and bridge hand over to stroke the cb two or three tips off center, and stroke it absolutely straight through. I believe you will find that you will almost miss the entire ob.

Now do the same thing; aim with center ball directly to make the ob ball then without moving the bridge hand and stroke the cb in the same spot you hit before, but use Hoppe's method. You will see that now you hit ob close to the makeable contact point.
Use the same speed stroke with each method. This demonstrates how players adjust no matter what method they use. Thus videos on these methods IMHO should be taken with a grain of salt.

I would now like to officially coin this stroke; "The Hoppe Stroke". If that's ok with everyone!

I hope this is somewhat helpful for those that are confused by reverse inside english, as I certainly was when I lost to Popcorn on a 6 x12 snooker table, by using a reverse english shot to get shape and missed it because the cue ball pushed on me, and I over cut it. I was self taught and could never figure out why the cue ball did not curve into the ob ball. Jimmy Reid was watching and paid me the ultimate compliment by saying ;" I just have to say, I haven't seen shooting like this in a long time". I should of ask him how to a make a reverse english shot, lol! I am proud to say this for I do not have a whole lot to cling on to for from start to finish I only played less than 4 years. So I and this stroke go way back, what a nightmare miss! Whitey
 
Last edited:

mr3cushion

Suspended
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,062
I beg to differ very much so! You'll see Hoppe use this stroke on regular shots, being close to the ob (within a 1/4" or so) has nothing to do with it. I can stroke absolutely straight through a 1/4" close proximity shot without any fouette stroke and get the same results. This is how Raymond Ceuleman does it. I am going to post a video of an absolute straight follow through on this shot.

Here is my take; we all know that inside reverse english pushing the cb. I feel that players adjust their aim for the push no matter what method they use.

Here is a true test: Mark the position of the balls, and set up the ob @ the 1 diamond side rail and 1 diamond end foot rail, and place the cb on the head string 1-1/2 diamond off the side rail to back cut the ob on about a 40 degree angle using inside reverse english.

Now aim at the ob to make it with center ball then keep the exact same parallel cue angle but move the cue and bridge hand over to stroke the cb two or three tips off center, and stroke it absolutely straight through. I believe you will find that you will almost miss the entire ob.

Now do the same thing; aim with center ball directly to make the ob ball then without moving the bridge hand and stroke the cb in the same spot you hit before, but use Hoppe's method. You will see that now you hit ob close to the makeable contact point.
Use the same speed stroke with each method. This demonstrates how players adjust no matter what method they use. Thus videos on these methods IMHO should be taken with a grain of salt.

I would now like to officially coin this stroke; "The Hoppe Stroke". If that's ok with everyone!

I hope this is somewhat helpful for those that are confused by reverse inside english, as I certainly was when I lost to Popcorn on a 6 x12 snooker table, by using a reverse english shot to get shape and missed it because the cue ball pushed on me, and I over cut it. I was self taught and could never figure out why the cue ball did not curve into the ob ball. Jimmy Reid was watching and paid me the ultimate compliment by saying ;" I just have to say, I haven't seen shooting like this in a long time". I should of ask him how to a make a reverse english shot, lol! So I and this stroke go way back, what a nightmare miss! Whitey
Whitey; here's a video of myself, cutting the OB backwards, 'Ball First' with, 'Inside English!' In the 1st position, the CB & OB are parallel to each other. The 2nd position the CB is 1/2 ball, 'behind the OB.' And the third an d final position has the CB, '1 FULL ball behind the OB!' You will notice the CB ALWAYS travels back toward the corner pocket I am shooting from, and the cue goes, 'perfectly straight thru' on each shot, no matter how extreme!

BTW, the last most difficult position, I hit extra crispy! You can tell from the sound and the CB almost scratched in the pocket!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeAwBsMu7gQ
 

Patrick Johnson

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
1,440
...aim at the ob to make it with center ball then keep the exact same parallel cue angle but move the cue and bridge hand over to stroke the cb two or three tips off center, and stroke it absolutely straight through. I believe you will find that you will almost miss the entire ob.

Now do the same thing; aim with center ball directly to make the ob ball then without moving the bridge hand and stroke the cb in the same spot you hit before, but use Hoppe's method. You will see that now you hit ob close to the makeable contact point.
Sure. "Backhand English" (moving the back hand sideways to put sidespin on the CB), works well when your bridge length is about the same as your shaft's "pivot length". You can do it "dynamically" by swooping your stroke, or you can do it "statically" by angling your cue first and stroking straight through at the new angle. Both ways produce the same amount of sidespin, but "static" is more accurate/consistent.

This is a decades-old topic, by the way - like aiming systems, it's always good for a spirited debate.

pj <- no spirits yet (it's barely past noon!)
chgo
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
1,340
mr3cushion, that is an amazing shot making! How far off is the ob from the rail, it looks very close! You are a true master, and I say that in all reverence!

I firmly believe pro players adjust for the push upon the cue ball, an possibly unknowingly, for they play so much it is just second nature.

And I 'respectfully' say that I detect your cue going to the left as we look at it. A subtle version of the Hoppe Stroke, but enough that you are adjusting for the push effect. It gets less subtle as you increase the cut. I maybe wrong but this is what I see!

When I mentioned the Hoppe Stroke, where the stroke crosses over the straight axis, such as with a half tip over it would be nearly undetectable, but in your video where it can be stopped, I believe it clearly shows this IMO.
I do not think this is a big deal, for I use your exact same stroke all the time! It's very subtle.

Patrick, All I ask is that you actually take my test to the table. Just go one tip off center and stroke straight though, you'll see you will almost miss the whole ball. What this test proves is that players correct their aim for the squirt!

I believe this is what you want to test. Starting with center ball and then moving the bridge hand over and then stroking with reverse english on the same angle as if stroking from center ball, correct? And you're saying that it is more accurate than using the Hoppe stroke and hitting the cb in the same exact spot. Will do it! Respectfully, Whitey

Hey guys this is for fun and for members to know that there is actually a cross over the axis stroke, what I call; 'The Hoppe Stroke', and its real and many pro's use it.
 

mr3cushion

Suspended
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,062
mr3cushion, that is an amazing shot making! How far off is the ob from the rail, it looks very close! You are a true master, and I say that in all reverence!

I firmly believe pro players adjust for the push upon the cue ball, an possibly unknowingly, for they play so much it is just second nature.

And I 'respectfully' say that I detect your cue going to the left as we look at it. A subtle version of the Hoppe Stroke, but enough that you are adjusting for the push effect. It gets less subtle as you increase the cut. I maybe wrong but this is what I see!

When I mentioned the Hoppe Stroke, where the stroke crosses over the straight axis, such as with a half tip over it would be nearly undetectable, but in your video where it can be stopped, I believe it clearly shows this IMO.
I do not think this is a big deal, for I use your exact same stroke all the time! It's very subtle.

Patrick, All I ask is that you actually take my test to the table. Just go one tip off center and stroke straight though, you'll see you will almost miss the whole ball. What this test proves is that players correct their aim for the squirt!

I believe this is what you want to test. Starting with center ball and then moving the bridge hand over and then stroking with reverse english on the same angle as if stroking from center ball, correct? And you're saying that it is more accurate than using the Hoppe stroke and hitting the cb in the same exact spot. Will do it! Respectfully, Whitey

Hey guys this is for fun and for members to know that there is actually a cross over the axis stroke, what I call; 'The Hoppe Stroke', and its real and many pro's use it.
The OB is frozen to the cushion.

If you go frame by frame, the cue is going perfectly on line to the point of aim to the OB!
 

Mkbtank

Verified Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
5,308
Testing your stroke

I see some posts are missing! What's up with that?


Our website host had a major outage. They were (obviously) able to restore things but in order to do so had to restore to a backup. Backups happen automatically and periodically so that if there’s ever a crash you don’t lose all of the previous activity. In this case the most recent full backup was 12-24 hours behind, so any posts made after that are gone.

Hope that explains it.
 

mr3cushion

Suspended
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,062
Our website host had a major outage. They were (obviously) able to restore things but in order to do so had to restore to a backup. Backups happen automatically and periodically so that if there’s ever a crash you don’t lose all of the previous activity. In this case the most recent full backup was 12-24 hours behind, so any posts made after that are gone.

Hope that explains it.
Thanks Mitch. Is Blue grass Billiards the old Tacony billiards?
 

Patrick Johnson

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
1,440
I firmly believe pro players adjust for the push upon the cue ball, an possibly unknowingly, for they play so much it is just second nature.
Of course there's no question about this. Squirt happens.

Patrick, All I ask is that you actually take my test to the table. Just go one tip off center and stroke straight though, you'll see you will almost miss the whole ball. What this test proves is that players correct their aim for the squirt!
No test needed - I already agree with you.

Squirt and swerve happen on every sidespin shot, and must be corrected for in order to make the shot. This is common knowledge.

Pivoting the cue at your bridge to apply sidespin with "built-in" aim correction is known as "backhand English" (because you move only your back hand). It works best if your bridge length and your shaft's "pivot length" are the same. It's also most accurate and consistent when you first move the backhand and then stroke straight on that new angle, rather than "swiping" at the ball.

In other words, you're preaching to the choir. :)

pj
chgo
 

baby huey

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
1,326
Mr. 3C, I have been playing (at) billiards all my life and never really got anywhere. Lately I can average .70 playing a non defensive player. Your narratives are most enlightening and I look forward to them even though we mostly talk One Pocket. Regarding Hoppe; I love the folklore of pool and billiards and as a kid I grew up around a 3C room in Los Angeles. Many of the old timers there including Tiff Payne, Roman Yanez, Charlie Milliken and Gus Acopolis told me that Hoppe played absolutely perfect based on the caliber of his day. He did have that pump stroke you talked about and I find that the reason 3C is played today is because of his mastery of 18.1 and 18.2 Balkline. He literally changed the game of Billiards to 3C because of his skills. I would say based on longevity he and Cuelmans (spelled wrong I think) would have to rank as the best ever. Hoppe I think lasted over sixty years near or at the top and Raymond right behind him.......Your thoughts?
 

mr3cushion

Suspended
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
6,062
Mr. 3C, I have been playing (at) billiards all my life and never really got anywhere. Lately I can average .70 playing a non defensive player. Your narratives are most enlightening and I look forward to them even though we mostly talk One Pocket. Regarding Hoppe; I love the folklore of pool and billiards and as a kid I grew up around a 3C room in Los Angeles. Many of the old timers there including Tiff Payne, Roman Yanez, Charlie Milliken and Gus Acopolis told me that Hoppe played absolutely perfect based on the caliber of his day. He did have that pump stroke you talked about and I find that the reason 3C is played today is because of his mastery of 18.1 and 18.2 Balkline. He literally changed the game of Billiards to 3C because of his skills. I would say based on longevity he and Cuelmans (spelled wrong I think) would have to rank as the best ever. Hoppe I think lasted over sixty years near or at the top and Raymond right behind him.......Your thoughts?
Jerry, sounds like we both came up in the same kind of room. I learned many elements of 3C from my mentor, who in turn learned from Hoppe, Schaefer jr., Johnny Layton, Tiff Denton, Joe Procita...!

Hoppe didn't win his 1st 3C title till he was 50, in 1936, also, 1940-43 and 47-52. He was a great 18. & 18.2 Balkline player, but, when Jake Schaefer jr. came on the seen, he ran Hoppe and Cochran out of the game! The betting line used to be, Hoppe, 40, Cochran 50, and Schaefer 60, there average. Jake was the youngest of the three.

In 18.2 balkline, Schaefer held four records never broken by another American (some have since been beaten by non-Americans):[1][3]

The story I was told by my mentor, Ernie Presto, was that both Schaefer & Hagenlocher were so nervous, neither one wanted to shoot the break shot! Erich lagged so badly, it forced Jake to break and set a World record which has never been broken to this day!

A 400-point game average (from the break)

400-0. The 1925 World Championship 18.2 Balkline Tournament was held in the Congress Hotel, Chicago. The sixth game of the tournament on Thursday evening, February 26, featured Jake Schaefer II against Erich Hagenlocher of Germany. Schaefer won the lag and shot first. He made 400 consecutive billiards and won the game. Hagenlocher was quoted later as saying that toward the end of the run he was hoping that Schaefer wouldn’t miss. Hagenlocher was afraid that after sitting and watching for more than an hour, he wouldn’t be able to stand up and hit the end rail.

A 57.14 tournament grand average
A 93.25 match grand average
A high run of 432 in a match

There's NO doubt Jerry, that all three of these GREAT players, if were in the midst of the, 'Modern' game today, they would be at the top of the rankings. They knew what they were doing, It that's simple!

The game of 3 cushion is going thru a resurgence that hasn't been seen since the 20's. I just wish I was 50 years younger! :(
 
Last edited:
Top