Testing your stroke

mr3cushion

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The cue ball in the actual shot looks to be sitting higher on the rail than you have it diagramed. If it were actually placed where you have it diagramed I don’t think there is any way you could contact the frozen ball first with a level cue while 5-6 inches off the rail. Keep in mind you would have to keep the same angle to the OB though. 5-6 inches off the rail means more straight in of a shot....wouldn’t it?
Mike, this is an actual still from the video, the CB is frozen to cushion, 1 ball to the left of the 3rd diamond! What diagram? I mentioned I would keep the SAME angle into the OB!
 

chicagomike

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Mike, this is an actual still from the video, the CB is frozen to cushion, 1 ball to the left of the 3rd diamond! What diagram? I mentioned I would keep the SAME angle into the OB!
Your diagram of the location of balls and angles in post #14
 

Patrick Johnson

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You did! It's is and was reserved for my family and close friends! I've never even been formally introduced to you! Now you know!

I enjoy instructing! I've been doing it since 1986-87.
Though we never had occasion to talk, I saw you many times in the 90s at Chris's. Does that earn me a Bill?

pj
chgo
 

chicagomike

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You're digram of the location of balls and angles in post #14
I think the masse effect helps swerve the CB and assists in getting that type of action on the CB. I think 5-6 inches closer and it cannot be done. Just my thought...I'm sure you will try it at the table. Anxious to hear how it goes!!!!
 

mr3cushion

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You're digram of the location of balls and angles in post #14
Mike, once again! :frus! He screen shot it from my video! No trickery!!!

Go back and watch the video! YOU will see the starting position of the balls! As "I" diagrammed them in post #14!

Here's the photo from Patty, I drew the lines of attack into the CB and the carom into the 1st rail, then the huge swing to the corner pocket!

View attachment 23434
 

chicagomike

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Mike, once again! :frus! He screen shot it from my video! No trickery!!!

Go back and watch the video! YOU will see the starting position of the balls! As "I" diagrammed them in post #14!



Using the starting point in the video I don't think it can be done from 5-6 inches in from the rail with a level cue.
 

Patrick Johnson

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[Maybe one of our more scientific members can fill the, 'cut angle & angle into the 1st cushion.'
Roughly speaking, the shot into the corner pocket is about a 20 degree cut and the angle change off the cushion due to side spin is about 30 degrees.

For comparison, shooting the CB straight at the side rail with a level cue, it would only take about 2/3 maximum spin to change the rebound angle by 30 degrees. But a lot of the original spin on the CB is lost in the collision with the OB, so it takes more than 2/3 max spin for this shot.

pj
chgo
 

mr3cushion

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Using the starting point in the video I don't think it can be done from 5-6 inches in from the rail with a level cue.
Mike, I'll tell you what I'll do.

Either YOU or get 20 members to put up, $100 total, (5 bucks each) for my time. I'll take 25 attempts at trying to go 1 cushion and hit the frozen ball on the short rail.

I won't elevate my cue more than 10-15 degrees (is not much) and place the CB as diagrammed here.

View attachment 23436

I will video it with, 'time stamp' from my phone or better camera.

What do u think, about this prop?
 
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chicagomike

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Mike, I'll tell you what I'll do.

Either YOU or get 20 members to put up, $100 total, (5 bucks each) for my time. I'll take 25 attempts at trying to go 1 cushion and hit the frozen ball on the short rail.

I won't elevate my cue more than 10-15 degrees (is not much) and place the CB as diagrammed here.

View attachment 23436

I will video it with, 'time stamp' from my phone or better camera.

What do u think, about this prop?
I really didn’t think you needed an incentive for your time...it’s clear you enjoy demonstrating this type of thing which is awesome. Thanks for all you contribute...and by the way, if it took me 25 tries to make any kind of shot I’d certainly not use it in a game, therefore I rarely would practice the kind of stuff you are doing. That said, I’m really glad you enjoy testing out this these types of shots so that we know they are possible. Thanks again:)
 

mr3cushion

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I really didn’t think you needed an incentive for your time...it’s clear you enjoy demonstrating this type of thing which is awesome. Thanks for all you contribute...and by the way, if it took me 25 tries to make any kind of shot I’d certainly not use it in a game, therefore I rarely would practice the kind of stuff you are doing. That said, I’m really glad you enjoy testing out this these types of shots so that we know they are possible. Thanks again:)
Your welcome!

BTW, You NEVER practiced a shot you couldn't make, 25 times or more? Just askin.
 

chicagomike

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Your welcome!

BTW, You NEVER practiced a shot you couldn't make, 25 times or more? Just askin.
Practicing a shot is one thing and playing it when it counts is another. Like I said thanks for your commitment to helping others learn the game. The pool world needs more like you.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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mr3cushon,
When I first was attempting your shot I could not get the cue ball to throw over enough, so I used the method I learned from Buddy Hall and was able to get the throw.
So with your comment about my post, I then reviewed your video as suggested, and was able to duplicate your shot as you shot it. Cue slightly elevated and hitting straight through at 10 - 11 o'clock, with a moderate stroke.
I also shot it with a pretty level cue using max spin and got right on the next ob. So there is no need to do a 1/4 masse'.
Thanks for the comments, for it got me back to table and really working on your shot. Respectfully, Whitey

I will re-emphasis that this shot is a very important shot to know, for how many times have you ran past your position, with no way out! Well this is it! thanks, again mr3cushion!
 

mr3cushion

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mr3cushon,
When I first was attempting your shot I could not get the cue ball to throw over enough, so I used the method I learned from Buddy Hall and was able to get the throw.
So with your comment about my post, I then reviewed your video as suggested, and was able to duplicate your shot as you shot it. Cue slightly elevated and hitting straight through at 10 - 11 o'clock, with a moderate stroke.
I also shot it with a pretty level cue using max spin and got right on the next ob. So there is no need to do a 1/4 masse'.
Thanks for the comments, for it got me back to table and really working on your shot. Respectfully, Whitey

I will re-emphasis that this shot is a very important shot to know, for how many times have you ran past your position, with no way out! Well this is it! thanks, again mr3cushion!
Thanks, your welcome.
 

mr3cushion

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Whitey; I'm going to be a little presumptuous here, and assume you have a, 'smart phone' with camera abilities. If so, I and maybe others would like to see your technique and examine it on video. Would be much appreciated by me anyway.

In your 1st paragraph, you mention, (I underlined in red) the shot must be struck firm! Does appear or from the sound from my video that "I" struck the CB, 'firm?' I did not! Does it look like "I", 'semi-masse' the CB? I did not! The cue is slightly, 'elevated' because of the CB being frozen to it!

There is certainly a, "Secret" :D to making the shot in the fashion "I" did! It has to do with an element I left out of my explanation to Patty! You know, stroke, timing, tempo, speed and delivery. It's in there, can someone decipher it? HINT, Think proper correct grip on the cue!
I'll post an excerpt from, 'a guys' book later.

I know I'm being a little bit of a stinker! But, I want players to think and examine what "I" post about this subject to LEARN, that's all!
So above I mention a, 'Secret' I intentionally left out of the explanation.

I also did this, I think subconsciously in the my book in the, 'Fundamentals' chapter. I think it's because I learned the game in an era, where everyone guarded those little gems that they just couldn't give up! I guess I felt the same way, let them think figure it out!

And, I'm a little surprised no one here even touched on it. Here it is, 'Grip Pressure' at the point of contact on the CB!

For myself, the, 'Pre-shot routine' (warm-up strokes before the stance) is where most of the magic happens for me. For those that believe there are, 'different strokes' in the cue games, this is where many 3C players determine what stroke to apply for that particular shot that faces them.

I try to imitate in these warm-up strokes, the, timing, tempo, speed of the cue tip and distance to travel, and the grip pressure I feel I need at the impact of the CB to impart the correct effect on the CB!

All that, plus trying to control the 2nd ball for position, normally within 5-10 seconds before setting down for the shot!
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8731R-54enA
mr3cushion,
Here is a video of Hoppe and Cockran, I wanted to show you and members what I call the 'Hoppe Stroke'. You being a 3C player are probably very well aware of this. It is where the axis of the cue pivots at his bridge hand. He strokes straight at the cue ball but then swings the cue to swipe at the cue upon contact.
I used this method to make your shot when I tried it to apply maximum spin.

I also use this stroke and method when putting reverse english upon the cue ball to keep the cue ball from pushing. I aim directly at the ob from the axis of my bridge hand to the correct contact point on the ob to make it as I would do on any shot then put the Wille Hoppe stroke on it and it works pretty darn well. I do not always use this method when using reverse (inside) english, but it is nice to know. Thanks, Hoppe! After realizing this stroke I notice some pro players use it when using reverse english.

I did your shot some more after your last post, and shot it the way you do. I paid attention to my grip but did not notice that it changed. I use a two finger grip, and do not severely grip the cue. I find that staying relaxed does wonders when the cue contacts the cue ball and promotes a healthy follow through. I stroked it straight through as you do and the cb gets on over there!

Also I agree with your warm up strokes, I being self taught did not develop this but have toyed with it, but I forget to use it. Jimmy Reid comes to mind, for he used this method!
Thanks again for your instructional video thread! Whitey

I'll try to find Buddy Hall's method of shooting a similar shot!
 
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Patrick Johnson

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...the axis of the cue pivots at his bridge hand. He strokes straight at the cue ball but then swings the cue to swipe at the cue upon contact.
I used this method to make your shot when I tried it to apply maximum spin.
This "swooping/swiping" technique has been discussed a lot - the general conclusion is that it doesn't add anything to the spin you can get with a straight stroke (and of course it reduces stroke accuracy).

Here's a quote from Dr. Dave's "resource page" on swoop/swipe stroking:

"Many "Old Timers" (and people who learned from "Old Timers") and even some "Young Guns" firmly believe that the swoop stroke provides an advantage. However, as described, illustrated, and demonstrated below, there is always an "equivalent straight stroke" that will send the CB in the same direction with the same speed and spin, and do so with better accuracy and consistency."
Sometimes what looks like a swoop/swipe stroke is actually a "fouette" stroke, which is a technique for avoiding a double hit foul when using extreme English in very close CB/OB quarters - I think Hoppe's stroke in your video may be an example of that.

pj
chgo
 
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mr3cushion

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8731R-54enA
mr3cushion,
Here is a video of Hoppe and Cockran, I wanted to show you and members what I call the 'Hoppe Stroke'. You being a 3C player are probably very well aware of this. It is where the axis of the cue pivots at his bridge hand. He strokes straight at the cue ball but then swings the cue to swipe at the cue upon contact.
I used this method to make your shot when I tried it to apply maximum spin.

I also use this stroke and method when putting reverse english upon the cue ball to keep the cue ball from pushing. I aim directly at the ob from the axis of my bridge hand to the correct contact point on the ob to make it as I would do on any shot then put the Wille Hoppe stroke on it and it works pretty darn well. I do not always use this method when using reverse (inside) english, but it is nice to know. Thanks, Hoppe! After realizing this stroke I notice some pro players use it when using reverse english.

I did your shot some more after your last post, and shot it the way you do. I paid attention to my grip but did not notice that it changed. I use a two finger grip, and do not severely grip the cue. I find that staying relaxed does wonders when the cue contacts the cue ball and promotes a healthy follow through. I stroked it straight through as you do and the cb gets on over there!

Also I agree with your warm up strokes, I being self taught did not develop this but have toyed with it, but I forget to use it. Jimmy Reid comes to mind, for he used this method!
Thanks again for your instructional video thread! Whitey

I'll try to find Buddy Hall's method of shooting a similar shot!
The old time top players of the first half of the 20th century ALL came up playing the, 'small games,' (straight rail, balkline) those games required a, 'loose stroke, & tight bridge.' The reason being is, "To apply maximum effect on the CB and transferring it to the OB playing the 2nd ball off the cushions to land on the 3rd ball properly!" Also, most of the players back then playing the small games, held the cue just at the, 'balance point or a little in front of it,' to also have better control of the CB. All this happening, possibly in the space of the 3 balls, inches. I'm sure when these games died out, and all the players were switching to 3 cushion, they felt no need to change their style, to keep the, 'learning curve' down! They adapted, and it was the norm of the time.

The modern game of 3C is SO accurate, you will never see those styles of, 'pump handle' strokes! NOT but 1 or 2 top 3C players use the typical, 'Pendulum Stroke!'

You can see the evidence in Efren's game when He first arrived on the seen in the US. He stroke was all over the place, up n down, a little sideways! He started out as a, carom player, it shows and is the most important element of his pool game, IMHO!
 
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