Rules Question

dsb8541

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Playin $10 a game with regular sparring partner, very freindly, and playing cue ball fouls only, where it is understood that any ball inadvertantly moved by hand or stick is either left alone or put back by opposing player, so long as it is only one ball and not several balls.

So I am jacked up over a ball , say 3 ball, and hitting directly into another ball say 6 ball, w draw shot in order to freeze cb against 3 ball . So i shoot, move the 3 ball with my hand then cb and 6 ball come back into the area where they would have hit said 3 ball but it was not there anyomore cause i moved it with my hand.

So I only moved one ball inadvertantly, but I altered the outcome in an extreme manor. He ended up froze to the rail and the 6 ball, complete jail. We worked it out, but i was wondering if this would have been a high dollar set with a less freindly opponent, how we work this one out? Do you stick w the "only one ball was moved" rule, and if so, if he chooses to put the ball back where it was how can he since these other two balls now occupy that space?

Thanks for your opinions.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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dsb8541 said:
Playin $10 a game with regular sparring partner, very freindly, and playing cue ball fouls only, where it is understood that any ball inadvertantly moved by hand or stick is either left alone or put back by opposing player, so long as it is only one ball and not several balls.
So I am jacked up over a ball , say 3 ball, and hitting directly into another ball say 6 ball, w draw shot in order to freeze cb against 3 ball . So i shoot, move the 3 ball with my hand then cb and 6 ball come back into the area where they would have hit said 3 ball but it was not there anyomore cause i moved it with my hand.

So I only moved one ball inadvertantly, but I altered the outcome in an extreme manor. He ended up froze to the rail and the 6 ball, complete jail. We worked it out, but i was wondering if this would have been a high dollar set with a less freindly opponent, how we work this one out? Do you stick w the "only one ball was moved" rule, and if so, if he chooses to put the ball back where it was how can he since these other two balls now occupy that space?

Thanks for your opinions.
dsb8541,

There's no point in playing by an agreed upon set of rules if you are willing to alter them when a situation comes up that hurts one of you. If you and I were playing by the same rule and you did that to me it's my tough luck as I agreed to the rules we were playing by. It could just as easily have gone against you.

P.S. If I was playing a high dollar match I would prefer to play all-balls-touched is a foul but not too many play that way. It does eliminate all arguments about anything though.

Dennis
 

John Brumback

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Man,that Is a grey area for sure.I think nowadays most people play that If the cball or any ball comes through the path of said moved ball that would be a foul.But the problem with that brings the other problem of maybe you saying that It didn't come through there exactly, maybe just barely missed the path. Now what's he going to say.I guess If we are to ever end all of these kind of things,Will have to do like dennis said and play all ball fouls.
That's really the only way to have this not happen. But then your gonna have the ones that say...hold It,you just touched that ball with your belly or shirt or something and you fouled.Sorry that was long and confusing.John B.
 

NH Steve

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John Brumback said:
Man,that Is a grey area for sure.I think nowadays most people play that If the cball or any ball comes through the path of said moved ball that would be a foul.But the problem with that brings the other problem of maybe you saying that It didn't come through there exactly, maybe just barely missed the path. Now what's he going to say.I guess If we are to ever end all of these kind of things,Will have to do like dennis said and play all ball fouls.
That's really the only way to have this not happen. But then your gonna have the ones that say...hold It,you just touched that ball with your belly or shirt or something and you fouled.Sorry that was long and confusing.John B.
I think you pretty much covered both ends of the issue right there -- either too much grey area or too much nitpicking -- either extreme can get sticky.
 

SJDinPHX

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NH Steve said:
I think you pretty much covered both ends of the issue right there -- either too much grey area or too much nitpicking -- either extreme can get sticky.

I firmly disagree, especially in a semi-social game...Even in a big money game, the bottom line for me is black and white... In all the games I've ever played...If the path of the cue ball enters an area anywhere close to the object ball you touched, or moved, you have obviously commited a foul...No ifs, ands, or buts...It is NOT nit-picking, nor is it a grey area...it is a hard and fast accepted rule, with anyone who plays the game fairly, and by the rules...It happens occasionally, and should not even be contested... If I do it, I just reach down and spot a ball, as I have obviously fouled...It is the same as not getting a rail...IMHO..( unless of course you're playing for $50K, then you may need a Ref )...:eek:

PS..I bet the lucky guy, soaking in a spa in Germany, will agree with me..:D
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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SJDinPHX said:
I firmly disagree, especially in a semi-social game...Even in a big money game, the bottom line for me is black and white... In all the games I've ever played...If the path of the cue ball enters an area anywhere close to the object ball you touched, or moved, you have obviously commited a foul...No ifs, ands, or buts...It is NOT nit-picking, nor is it a grey area...it is a hard and fast accepted rule, with anyone who plays the game fairly, and by the rules...It happens occasionally, and should not even be contested... If I do it, I just reach down and spot a ball, as I have obviously fouled...It is the same as not getting a rail...IMHO..( unless of course you're playing for $50K, then you may need a Ref )...:eek:

PS..I bet the lucky guy, soaking in a spa in Germany, will agree with me..:D
Dear Duckhead,

It is not possible to firmly disagree, you can only disagree, there is no further level of disagreeing after that.:p

I'd bet the two bottles you owe me that the lucky guy in Germany, if he committed the foul, would argue till the cows came home and deny that he did it.:eek:

RBL
 

Cowboy Dennis

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dsb8541 said:
Playin $10 a game with regular sparring partner, very freindly, and playing cue ball fouls only, where it is understood that any ball inadvertantly moved by hand or stick is either left alone or put back by opposing player, so long as it is only one ball and not several balls.

So I am jacked up over a ball , say 3 ball, and hitting directly into another ball say 6 ball, w draw shot in order to freeze cb against 3 ball . So i shoot, move the 3 ball with my hand then cb and 6 ball come back into the area where they would have hit said 3 ball but it was not there anyomore cause i moved it with my hand.

So I only moved one ball inadvertantly, but I altered the outcome in an extreme manor. He ended up froze to the rail and the 6 ball, complete jail. We worked it out, but i was wondering if this would have been a high dollar set with a less freindly opponent, how we work this one out? Do you stick w the "only one ball was moved" rule, and if so, if he chooses to put the ball back where it was how can he since these other two balls now occupy that space?
Thanks for your opinions.
dsb,

Sorry for overlooking your question last night. In the situation that happened to you I would leave all balls where they are and consider it a lesson learned. No foul occurred according to the rules you and your opponent agreed to and the balls certainly can't be moved to allow the 3 to be replaced.

P.S. Situations like this make a perfect argument for "object ball fouls".

Dennis
 

John Brumback

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Dear Duckhead,

It is not possible to firmly disagree, you can only disagree, there is no further level of disagreeing after that.:p

I'd bet the two bottles you owe me that the lucky guy in Germany, if he committed the foul, would argue till the cows came home and deny that he did it.:eek:

RBL

Hey Dennis,That's what i was thinking.Who's to say who's wrong and who's right.GREY AREA.

PS: Duckhead's just mad cause he can't bank a lic.JK duckhead.haha John B.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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John Brumback said:
Hey Dennis,That's what i was thinking.Who's to say who's wrong and who's right.GREY AREA.

PS: Duckhead's just mad cause he can't bank a lic.JK duckhead.haha John B.
John,

He and his opponent agreed to play by a rule that couldn't be applied in this case, that's how rules evolve to cover all situations.

No foul occurred (according to their rules) and it was physically impossible to replace the 3 ball.

P.S. The Duck only plays pocket-speed banks:p .

Dennis
 

dsb8541

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Thank you all for your comments and opinions on this. I think I tend to lean towards SJD's and Mr Brumback's take on this. I am clearly the individual who illegally altered the shot/layout of the table. In good conscience, it was very difficult to allow my opponent to be so adversly effected by some element of my wrong doing. What I did was just move the cb out of the trap and let him shoot whatever. But I think I like just leaving it lay and spotting a ball as a better option. Again ,Thanks for the input.

BTW I will playing the event at Bogies this weekend, would love to meet any of you there. I will be the dead money looking for some experiance. I saw Mr. Brumback, Mr. Stroud, and the Freezer will be in attendance, I hope for the opportunity to say hello.
 
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petie

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On the other hand...if the 3 ball that he moved with his hand had moved INTO the path of the CB instead of out of the path of the CB, I feel that it would be a cue ball foul having interfered with the path of the cue ball. What do you think?
 

Cowboy Dennis

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petie said:
On the other hand...if the 3 ball that he moved with his hand had moved INTO the path of the CB instead of out of the path of the CB, I feel that it would be a cue ball foul having interfered with the path of the cue ball. What do you think?
The original poster stated the rules he and his opponent had agreed to concerning accidently moved balls, that is all they had to go on. He said nothing about the cueball crossing the path of moved balls being a part of thier agreed upon rules. He was very clear as to their agreed rule. Everybody is making it up as they go along and including more rules as they go.

Dennis
 

SJDinPHX

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Cowboy Dennis said:
The original poster stated the rules he and his opponent had agreed to concerning accidently moved balls, that is all they had to go on. He said nothing about the cueball crossing the path of moved balls being a part of thier agreed upon rules. He was very clear as to their agreed rule. Everybody is making it up as they go along and including more rules as they go.

Dennis

This may be true, but the actual correct rule, in case the OP wants to know...is really not that complex. It has been an accepted rule in one pocket for years...If you hit an OB that you moved accidently, with the cue ball (which usually happens when you are making an awkward bridge, over a few balls)...It is a foul and you owe a ball, if you made a ball on the shot..it spots up...In the context of a refereed game (rare I admiit) if the shooter moves a ball "out of the way, of the path of the cue ball, that is also a foul...This is usually, quite open to conjecture, in non-refereed games (or a black eye) unless it is very obvious.

This is NOT a complex rule..I have had it called on me, (in refereed games) I have called it on myself, and I have called it on my opponent. To put it simply, the act of moving an OB, to where it effects the intended path of the cue ball, is a foul...even if you are playing cue ball fouls only...It is obviously a foul, if you make contact with the moved ball..This rule also applies in almost every other discipline. It is no different than if you let the cue ball accidently hit your stick after contact.

I will be the Dr., until the Dr. returns...Because I am older. (and wiser)...:rolleyes:
 
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Cary

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SJDinPHX said:
This may be true, but the actual correct rule, in case the OP wants to know...is really not that complex. It has been an accepted rule in one pocket for years...If you hit an OB that you moved accidently, with the cue ball (which usually happens when you are making an awkward bridge, over a few balls)...It is a foul and you owe a ball, if you made a ball on the shot..it spots up...In the context of a refereed game (rare I admiit) if the shooter moves a ball "out of the way, of the path of the cue ball, that is also a foul...This is usually, quite open to conjecture, in non-refereed games (or a black eye) unless it is very obvious.

This is NOT a complex rule..I have had it called on me, (in refereed games) I have called it on myself, and I have called it on my opponent. To put it simply, the act of moving an OB, to where it effects the intended path of the cue ball, is a foul...even if you are playing cue ball fouls only...It is obviously a foul, if you make contact with the moved ball..This rule also applies in almost every other discipline. It is no different than if you let the cue ball accidently hit your stick after contact.

I will be the Dr., until the Dr. returns...Because I am older. (and wiser)...:rolleyes:

I dunno, we might have to argue a bit, which of course is why I like rules written down, published, and agreed to before we start. I've played 8-ball in places where it was understood that you won if you made the 8 on the break---by everyone but me. A painful lesson. :eek: :eek:

PS: You mean you'd actually call a foul on yourself?

PSS: Unquestionably older.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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SJDinPHX said:
This may be true, but the actual correct rule, in case the OP wants to know...is really not that complex. It has been an accepted rule in one pocket for years...If you hit an OB that you moved accidently, with the cue ball (which usually happens when you are making an awkward bridge, over a few balls)...It is a foul and you owe a ball, if you made a ball on the shot..it spots up...In the context of a refereed game (rare I admiit) if the shooter moves a ball "out of the way, of the path of the cue ball, that is also a foul...This is usually, quite open to conjecture, in non-refereed games (or a black eye) unless it is very obvious.

This is NOT a complex rule..I have had it called on me, (in refereed games) I have called it on myself, and I have called it on my opponent. To put it simply, the act of moving an OB, to where it effects the intended path of the cue ball, is a foul...even if you are playing cue ball fouls only...It is obviously a foul, if you make contact with the moved ball..This rule also applies in almost every other discipline.The original, real 14.1 rules call for all balls touched is a foul. It is no different than if you let the cue ball accidently hit your stick after contact.

I will be the Dr., until the Dr. returns...Because I am older. (and wiser)...:rolleyes:
Dear Duckhead,

The actual "correct" rule would be to play object ball fouls. You would eliminate all BS interpretations and any arguments. These things happen so fast and unexpectedly that no player can ever be ready to say what happened on a shot, there is no video replay and the sideline is not in the game unless asked by both players and they are sitting too far away to see it anyway.

As to your contention that a cueball hitting a "moved" ball is a foul; I agree but I have seen it played that a player can grab the moved ball and replace it to it's previous position before the cueball hits it. Of course this was probably a "move" made up on the spur of the moment and I never let him do it again:eek:

I'll say once again, with the exception of players with a little age & shakiness on their bones, the only correct way to play fouls is ALL BALLS TOUCHED IS A FOUL.

The only reason guys don't play that way is they want leeway to argue their point. They don't want to be trapped into a foul because they moved a ball, they want to argue that the rock didn't cross the path of the ball they moved. In short, they are dishonest and want to preserve any chance they can of getting out of a jam of their own making.

"All balls touched is a foul" is the only way to play and anyone young enough not to shake when they play or jack up over a ball is just being dishonest not to play that way.

RBL
 

SactownTom

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OP post question... answer IMO it is a foul. Cue ball in place, offender spots a ball. Incoming player shoots

I've always played and seen it played that if just one ball moves accidentally, play stops and non-shooting player decides if the ball stays or is moved back as close as possible to the original position. If the movement is during or after the shot and didn't come into play, with either the cue ball or object ball, no har no foul. If it did come into play FOUL.

Most decent players will let the shooter move the ball back. I said 'decent'...

Move two or more balls and it is an automatice foul. spot one up and incoming player had the talbe 'in position'

Tournament rules mostly follow the above rules. I said 'mostly'
 

SJDinPHX

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Dear Duckhead,

As to your contention that a cueball hitting a "moved" ball is a foul; I agree but I have seen it played that a player can grab the moved ball and replace it to it's previous position before the cueball hits it. Of course this was probably a "move" made up on the spur of the moment and I never let him do it again:eek:
I always suspected you had your training at the local YMCA... Did you also move the cue ball out a butts width, when you were froze on the rail ?? ..:rolleyes:

I'll say once again, with the exception of players with a little age & shakiness on their bones, the only correct way to play fouls is ALL BALLS TOUCHED IS A FOUL.
Seperated only, by a meaningless paragraph, you then wrote this...
"All balls touched is a foul" is the only way to play and anyone young enough not to shake when they play or jack up over a ball is just being dishonest not to play that way.
An obvious cheap shot at me...But, I must ask, how many times, are you going to repeat yourself, in the same post....I have had quite enough of that, of late,... thank you very much !!!.. ;)

RBL

Dear Dolt-head,

Methinks your obvious pre-alzheimers condition, may be manifesting itself a little early..Please, my friend,...seek help immediately:p :D
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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SJD inPHX said:
Dear Dolt-head,

Methinks your obvious pre-alzheimer's condition, may be manifesting itself a little early..Please, my friend,...seek help immediately:p :D
Cowboy Dennis said:
Dear Duck Head,

As to your contention that a cue ball hitting a "moved" ball is a foul; I agree but I have seen it played that a player can grab the moved ball and replace it to it's previous position before the cue ball hits it. Of course this was probably a "move" made up on the spur of the moment and I never let him do it again
I always suspected you had your training at the local YMCA Did you also move the cue ball out a butts width, when you were froze on the rail ?? .. Well yeah!!!!!

I'll say once again, with the exception of players with a little age & shakiness on their bones, the only correct way to play fouls is ALL BALLS TOUCHED IS A FOUL.
Separated only, by a meaningless paragraph, you then wrote this..."All balls touched is a foul" is the only way to play and anyone young enough not to shake when they play or jack up over a ball is just being dishonest not to play that way.
An obvious cheap shot at me...But, I must ask, how many times, are you going to repeat yourself, in the same post....I have had quite enough of that of late,... thank you very much..It was a concession to Rod you imbecile. He has made me aware of reasons why an honest person might not play "all balls touched is a foul, you imbecile:p "

RBL

Dear Webbedfoot Breath,

I've tapped into the first bottle of Jennas finest that I've had in three weeks but no alzheimer's is settin' in. I've mowed most of the lawn and actually weedwhacked, first time ever. I cut all around the fire hydrant out by the road until I got close enough (4 ft.) and a rabbit went scurrying off to the back of the yard, scared the hell out of me:eek:.

Cowboy "snapper operator & expert" Dennis
 

SJDinPHX

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SactownTom said:
OP post question... answer IMO it is a foul. Cue ball in place, offender spots a ball. Incoming player shoots

I've always played and seen it played that if just one ball moves accidentally, play stops and non-shooting player decides if the ball stays or is moved back as close as possible to the original position. If the movement is during or after the shot and didn't come into play, with either the cue ball or object ball, no har no foul. If it did come into play FOUL.

Most decent players will let the shooter move the ball back. I said 'decent'...

Move two or more balls and it is an automatice foul. spot one up and incoming player had the talbe 'in position'

Tournament rules mostly follow the above rules. I said 'mostly'

Tom, I am surprised you didn't agree with my assessment, and overview...I have seen guys replace an accidently moved OB before they shoot, if both players agree on where the ball was...this is a common courtesy... But, I've never seen an OB, or a cue ball, replaced after the shot is completed. Especially in one pocket...at least not in my lifetime.

PS..Exception ;...Dennis may have played that way, at the YMCA..:p :D :p
 
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