[B]Mr. Booth.....we need a ruling......[/B]

[bernie p]

Steve,

Please reference the attached Standard OnePocket.org ruling, paragraph and sentence concerning pocketing your opponents ball while fouling by jumping an object ball off the table:

6.2 Any scratch or foul results in the end of the shooter’s inning, as well as a standard one ball penalty. All balls pocketed in the shooter’s pocket as a result of a stroke that includes a foul do not count for the shooting player and are to be immediately spotted, along with the standard one ball penalty. Also, any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent, and are to be immediately spotted. However, on a stroke when any other foul is committed (such as a push shot, double-hit or illegal ball contact), any balls scored into the opponent’s pocket are to stay down and be counted for the opponent

Am I correct in assuming that this should read "with cue ball or object ball off the table", or does the opponents ball stay down if an object ball leaves the table, verses comes back up if the cue ball leaves the table?

Thanks.

Bernie.

 

[NH Steve]

Steve,

Please reference the attached Standard OnePocket.org ruling, paragraph and sentence concerning pocketing your opponents ball while fouling by jumping an object ball off the table:

6.2 Any scratch or foul results in the end of the shooter’s inning, as well as a standard one ball penalty. All balls pocketed in the shooter’s pocket as a result of a stroke that includes a foul do not count for the shooting player and are to be immediately spotted, along with the standard one ball penalty. Also, any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent, and are to be immediately spotted. However, on a stroke when any other foul is committed (such as a push shot, double-hit or illegal ball contact), any balls scored into the opponent’s pocket are to stay down and be counted for the opponent

Am I correct in assuming that this should read "with cue ball or object ball off the table", or does the opponents ball stay down if an object ball leaves the table, verses comes back up if the cue ball leaves the table?

Thanks.

Bernie.

My ruling would be that the ball that went into the opponent's pocket would still count for the opponent if the foul that occurred was that the shooter jumped an object ball off of the table. The only exceptions (when the object ball would not count for the opponent would be "pocket scratch" or "cue ball off the table. That would be my ruling.

Bear in mind, some parts of the country have long tradition of playing "house rules" that an object ball jumped off the table is not even a foul -- so obviously the ball would stay down in that case too.

 

[petie]

My ruling would be that the ball that went into the opponent's pocket would still count for the opponent if the foul that occurred was that the shooter jumped an object ball off of the table. The only exceptions (when the object ball would not count for the opponent would be "pocket scratch" or "cue ball off the table. That would be my ruling.

Bear in mind, some parts of the country have long tradition of playing "house rules" that an object ball jumped off the table is not even a foul -- so obviously the ball would stay down in that case too.

Steve, read the rule! 6.2 clearly states that oppo's ball doesn't count and is spotted up after any shot that ends in a foul with cb off the table. This is the way people have been playing for decades. In fact, as I re-read your ruling, it sounds like you are controdicting yourself. What is the distinction between "jumping the cue ball off the table" and "cue ball off the table?" How do you think the cue ball gets off the table if not by jumping it?"

 

[androd]

Steve, read the rule! 6.2 clearly states that oppo's ball doesn't count and is spotted up after any shot that ends in a foul with cb off the table. This is the way people have been playing for decades. In fact, as I re-read your ruling, it sounds like you are controdicting yourself. What is the distinction between "jumping the cue ball off the table" and "cue ball off the table?" How do you think the cue ball gets off the table if not by jumping it?"

Please reread.
Rod.

 

[petie]

Please reread.
Rod.

I'm missing something. Please point out the nose on my face that I fail to see when I look in the mirror.
Thanks

 

[lll]

Steve,



Am I correct in assuming that this should read "with cue ball or object ball off the table", does the opponents ball stay down if an object ball leaves the table, verses comes back up if the cue ball leaves the table?

Thanks.

Bernie.

petie
i interpret the question and the rule as follows
if you make a ball in your opponents pocket and the cue ball goes off the table your oponents ball comes up

if you tried to combo a ball out of your opponents pocket for example and a ball goes in his pocket and another ball goes off the table but the cue ball didnt scratch,foul, or go off the table
the ball would stay down for your opponent
jmho
icbw

 

[petie]

Duh. Thanks, Larry. OBJECT ball not CUE ball. "Nevermind," Rosanna Rosanna Danna.

 

[lll]

Duh. Thanks, Larry. OBJECT ball not CUE ball. "Nevermind," Rosanna Rosanna Danna.

have some coffee
its still early in the day

 

[androd]

I'm missing something. Please point out the nose on my face that I fail to see when I look in the mirror.
Thanks

It's about an object ball off the table and the CB remaining on the table.
Rod.

My ruling would be that the ball that went into the opponent's pocket would still count for the opponent if the foul that occurred was that the shooter jumped an object ball off of the table.

P.S. Sorry Petie, was posting this while you were Rosanna Rosannadana-ing.

 

[Red Shoes]

You know I never liked the way that rule was written. Also I think it was in "Winning One Pocket" that one of the stories told of player A having his "out" ball in the jaws of his pocket, with an additional ball very close to it (slightly up table). A trap INDEED. Player B takes a bunch of close warm up strokes on the cue ball (A is watching closer and closer). JUST as he lets go with his final stroke, he (player B) double hits the cue ball....player A...calls "FOUL"....the cue ball softly goes down table and pockets player A's out ball in the jaws and the cue ball remains on the table....the idea being the pocketed ball did not count for player A because he called a "foul". At any rate @ Red Shoes Billiards "ANY" ball pocketed during the commission of a foul is returned to the table....PERIOD!

 

[usblues]

period....

period....

.....is the way to go,get them balls where we can see em,have a large day chicago,adios,st paul........

 

[Billy Jackets]

You know I never liked the way that rule was written. Also I think it was in "Winning One Pocket" that one of the stories told of player A having his "out" ball in the jaws of his pocket, with an additional ball very close to it (slightly up table). A trap INDEED. Player B takes a bunch of close warm up strokes on the cue ball (A is watching closer and closer). JUST as he lets go with his final stroke, he (player B) double hits the cue ball....player A...calls "FOUL"....the cue ball softly goes down table and pockets player A's out ball in the jaws and the cue ball remains on the table....the idea being the pocketed ball did not count for player A because he called a "foul". At any rate @ Red Shoes Billiards "ANY" ball pocketed during the commission of a foul is returned to the table....PERIOD!

I am always fascinated with the devious things people figure out to do to each other.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I am always fascinated with the devious things people figure out to do to each other.

BJ,

I've done this twice to two people who absolutely f@#king deserved it. The beauty of it when doing it to a creep is that THEY call the foul (because they are creeps and always call fouls) before they even realize what's going on.

The first time I ever did it was to Horseface Harry. I made sure he was watching my shot and then I double-hit the cueball and pocketed his game ball. He almost broke his tongue calling "foul" so I agreed and spotted up his game ball along with one from my pocket for the foul. He stood there for a while thinking about what had just happened and then he continued the game.


You can only do this to dishonest creeps or it won't work as intended.

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

At any rate @ Red Shoes Billiards "ANY" ball pocketed during the commission of a foul is returned to the table....PERIOD!

This doesn't sound like a rule that knowledgeable players would play by. This rule wouldn't fly in Detroit.

Dennis

 

[Billy Jackets]

BJ,

I've done this twice to two people who absolutely f@#king deserved it. The beauty of it when doing it to a creep is that THEY call the foul (because they are creeps and always call fouls) before they even realize what's going on.

The first time I ever did it was to Horseface Harry. I made sure he was watching my shot and then I double-hit the cueball and pocketed his game ball. He almost broke his tongue calling "foul" so I agreed and spotted up his game ball along with one from my pocket for the foul. He stood there for a while thinking about what had just happened and then he continued the game.


You can only do this to dishonest creeps or it won't work as intended.

Dennis

HFH, haven't heard that name for a while.
He came through Columbus a few times about 20 years ago.
Gambling , I guess you would have to settle it in what ever way necessary , but in a tournament , wouldn't this be considered "unsportsmanlike' and therefore be loss of a ball? Thereby ending the game?
I had realised that a lot would depend on your opponents response , so , knowing the probable outcome makes it even stronger!

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

HFH, haven't heard that name for a while.
He came through Columbus a few times about 20 years ago.
Gambling , I guess you would have to settle it in what ever way necessary , but in a tournament , wouldn't this be considered "unsportsmanlike' and therefore be loss of a ball? Thereby ending the game?
I had realised that a lot would depend on your opponents response , so , knowing the probable outcome makes it even stronger!

BJ,

You simply cannot do this shot, it's that simple. I don't know any tournament rules. Apparently, according to post #10 it is O.K. in Chicago.

I've always considered it to be very strange (but correct) that a shot that your opponent would be screaming "foul" on if playing another game isn't even allowed in one-pocket.

Yes, knowing the probable outcome is an advantage. The only other time I ever did it was when my opponents friend (in a chair) called fouls on me several times. I warned him to STFU but he persisted. The guy I was playing was a pretty nice guy and definitely not a creep but his friend annoyed me. The situation came up where my oppo's game ball was jawed up in his pocket and there was a ball over the headstring. I double-hit the cueball knowing that the friend in the chair would call a foul on me. He did, so I spotted up his friends game ball along with one of my own. My opponent asked what had just happened and his own friend explained to him that I had fouled. He didn't quite get the idea of his game ball coming back up but he acquiesced.

Dennis

 

[petie]

BJ,

You simply cannot do this shot, it's that simple. I don't know any tournament rules. Apparently, according to post #10 it is O.K. in Chicago.

I've always considered it to be very strange (but correct) that a shot that your opponent would be screaming "foul" on if playing another game isn't even allowed in one-pocket.

Yes, knowing the probable outcome is an advantage. The only other time I ever did it was when my opponents friend (in a chair) called fouls on me several times. I warned him to STFU but he persisted. The guy I was playing was a pretty nice guy and definitely not a creep but his friend annoyed me. The situation came up where my oppo's game ball was jawed up in his pocket and there was a ball over the headstring. I double-hit the cueball knowing that the friend in the chair would call a foul on me. He did, so I spotted up his friends game ball along with one of my own. My opponent asked what had just happened and his own friend explained to him that I had fouled. He didn't quite get the idea of his game ball coming back up but he acquiesced.

Dennis

Dennis,
Do you have any more examples of the "you simply cannot do this" rule? It has long been my contention that there are no meaningful rules unless there are penalties for infractions. Its hard to tell someone he cannot do something after he has done it. There are penalties available to rule committees such as loss of one ball, loss of game, loss of match, expulsion from tournament, expulsion from premesis, and others such as ball in hand for games other than one pocket.

Also, I agree with Red Shoes that any ball pocketed on any foul shot should come back up. The thing that comes into play is how a foul is determined. Some rules I have seen don't count a hit type shot as a foul unless a referee or an opponent declares it. Self declared fouls are not fouls until the ref or the oppo validates it.

Also, I enjoyed your rememerance of Harry Aproff. I liked him. Yes he led a 'colored' life but such is the way of the hustler. He could sing "Are You Lonesome Tonight" better than Elvis and would gladly sleep on the bench in the pool hall if you'd let him. His nickname, for anyone who never met him, came from the fact that he was missing the teeth behind his upper incisors and he easily smiled and laughed unembarrased so he would expose these teeth that made him look for all the world like a laughing horse. RIP, Harry.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis,
Do you have any more examples of the "you simply cannot do this" rule? It has long been my contention that there are no meaningful rules unless there are penalties for infractions. Its hard to tell someone he cannot do something after he has done it. There are penalties available to rule committees such as loss of one ball, loss of game, loss of match, expulsion from tournament, expulsion from premesis, and others such as ball in hand for games other than one pocket.

Also, I agree with Red Shoes that any ball pocketed on any foul shot should come back up. The thing that comes into play is how a foul is determined. Some rules I have seen don't count a hit type shot as a foul unless a referee or an opponent declares it. Self declared fouls are not fouls until the ref or the oppo validates it.

Also, I enjoyed your rememerance of Harry Aproff. I liked him. Yes he led a 'colored' life but such is the way of the hustler. He could sing "Are You Lonesome Tonight" better than Elvis and would gladly sleep on the bench in the pool hall if you'd let him. His nickname, for anyone who never met him, came from the fact that he was missing the teeth behind his upper incisors and he easily smiled and laughed unembarrased so he would expose these teeth that made him look for all the world like a laughing horse. RIP, Harry.

Petie,

When I have more time I will respond to your questions, until then maybe you'd like to peruse this thread that J. Brumback started since you were absent from it. http://onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5095

After about 180 replies of mostly stupidity it mercifully ended.

Thanks a lot John

Dennis

 

[petie]

Petie,

When I have more time I will respond to your questions, until then maybe you'd like to peruse this thread that J. Brumback started since you were absent from it. http://onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5095

After about 180 replies of mostly stupidity it mercifully ended.

Thanks a lot John

Dennis

Had I been present, I would have posted the truth as I see it which is that I would call it on myself and the oppo would validate it if he then took his shot after I spotted up my ball. That's just what I would do.

 

[wincardona]

My ruling would be that the ball that went into the opponent's pocket would still count for the opponent if the foul that occurred was that the shooter jumped an object ball off of the table. The only exceptions (when the object ball would not count for the opponent would be "pocket scratch" or "cue ball off the table. That would be my ruling.

Bear in mind, some parts of the country have long tradition of playing "house rules" that an object ball jumped off the table is not even a foul -- so obviously the ball would stay down in that case too.

I agree 100% with the rule as you explained it. This rule stops illegal shots from being executed intentionally.

Billy I.