Updating of our One Pocket rules

[NH Steve]

Isn’t it already in the general rules that a ball has to be called frozen prior to the shot?

Yes, but we have always had some stuff in our rules about frozen ball play because it comes up so often in One Pocket. It’s good to have right here easy to find and complete. For sh*ts and giggles, right now see how quickly you can find and post complete frozen ball safety play rules in the general rules. Go

 

[lll]

i have lost track of things
where is the new set of proposed rules posted?

 

[NH Steve]

i have lost track of things
where is the new set of proposed rules posted?

Starts with post 211 and continues I think a total of 3 posts from me.

 

[Ratamon]

Yes, but we have always had some stuff in our rules about frozen ball play because it comes up so often in One Pocket. It’s good to have right here easy to find and complete. For sh*ts and giggles, right now see how quickly you can find and post complete frozen ball safety play rules in the general rules. Go

Rule 8.4 of the WPA Rules and Regulation 29 of the WPA Regulations. It took me the best part of 10 minutes to find them, though

 

[lll]

Starts with post 211 and continues I think a total of 3 posts from me.

Thanks steve

 

[NH Steve]

Rule 8.4 of the WPA Rules and Regulation 29 of the WPA Regulations. It took me the best part of 10 minutes to find them, though

One thing about our little “rules committee” — we had great balance and contrast in perspective — Bob being a very strong advocate for sticking with the world standard rules, Dennis wanting fully independent rules for us without relying on the general rules, and me wanting to keep the rewrite as close as we can to our original 2004 Needless to say there was compromising. Probably both Bob and Dennis would have liked to see me compromise more. But what can I say — I am the founder and admin of onepocket.org, I can’t help myself. Who me, stubborn lol??

 

[Miller]

One thing about our little “rules committee” — we had great balance and contrast in perspective — Bob being a very strong advocate for sticking with the world standard rules, Dennis wanting fully independent rules for us without relying on the general rules, and me wanting to keep the rewrite as close as we can to our original 2004 Needless to say there was compromising. Probably both Bob and Dennis would have liked to see me compromise more. But what can I say — I am the founder and admin of onepocket.org, I can’t help myself. Who me, stubborn lol??

Like Beatle says....you're not gonna make everyone happy with rules....

But you did "punt" regarding the bridge.

 

[beatle]

yep, and the ones you have need to be short and clear. otherwise you have a giant rule book that no one is going to look at and a waste of time. pool has standard rules we dont need to make many more as one pocket is mostly standard.

4. Safety play

There is no option to ‘call a safety’ in One Pocket;

this may be needed but no more needs to be added to it. it is clear as a bell. you dont need to put in examples.

 

[12squared]

You gotta love all the passion for one pocket. It's that kind of game.

 

[NH Steve]

Rule 8.4 of the WPA Rules and Regulation 29 of the WPA Regulations. It took me the best part of 10 minutes to find them, though

Makes my point thank you — especially given how often it comes up in One Pocket!

 

[gulfportdoc]

yep, and the ones you have need to be short and clear. otherwise you have a giant rule book that no one is going to look at and a waste of time. pool has standard rules we dont need to make many more as one pocket is mostly standard.

Beatle, no disrespect, but I'm a little surprised that you continue to disparage the establishment of complete updated rules for 1P. The rules are chiefly intended for free use in tournaments-- where these odd situations can and do come up with frequency. The reason I know? I've TD'd several 1P tournaments, and every little seemingly nit-picking question and situation comes up sooner or later. So it's nice to have an established set of written rules to fall back on, if the tournament wants to use them. Otherwise the TD or decider is going to get heat from both players.

For example, at every DCC tournament, the TD spends roughly 90 minutes going over the rules set they use prior to the tournament's start. Many players do not attend those sessions. But when a question or a beef comes up, those rules are followed; so because of that the players have no good reason to complain.

Everyone, including the peanut vendors at Dodger Stadium, knows that when in a private game, the players are free to use whatever rules --or none-- that they like. You seem to fall into the latter category, as many private competitors do, and that's fine. But since this website is presumed to be the definitive word on one-pocket, we must have a thorough and definitive set of rules.

 

[LSJohn]

It probably would suffice to simply say something like: A ball is not considered frozen unless it is inspected and designated as frozen prior to the shot.

Yes, better. Well done.

 

[beatle]

doc we have a set of rules that apply to one pocket .. those are the 14.1 rules that cover almost all the one pocket situations.

we do need rules that cover things that dont come up in 14.1 like balls leaving the table and or running along the rail. slept balls,
spotting balls, etc. my point that i sway to, is make understandable rules for one pocket for the things that are one pocket special.
nothing wrong with having a section for new players.

 

[beatle]

please give 5 examples of nit picking situations that come up that are not covered in standard pool rules.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Beatle,
Yes, a game rule is used to explain how the game is played. Specific rules pertaining to that particular game and how it is orchestrated. They are almost always if not always wrote short and precise.

Not long ago I tested myself to see if I could do an old school game rule writing in which writers at that time were charged to do a game rule in one page or less. I was able to get all (important game rules) of what is in our official rules to fit in a 8-1/2 x 11 paper size.

Your comment is reminisce of Hayden Lingo's rule writings for the Jansco tournaments. Whereas they did a brief rule depiction of how the game is play for spectators, and then noted that the BCA 14.1 rules apply.

But, in all fairness, 14.1 rules are not the same since the onslaught of WSR and WPA. 14.1 was the general rules, not any more.

In support of your statement: "otherwise you have a giant rule book that no one is going to look at and a waste of time". For, we now see and this has been happening for awhile that tournaments and challenge matches are using the abbreviated OP rules of DCC, for they are easy to understand, and easy and short to explain at players meetings, and easy to post.

The DCC rules are not perfect but I can say this, they do at times become innovative and go out on a limb. Whole Ball, Ball on Break is a re-rack, and now their 45 degree rule. It is amazing how their 45 degree rule is so well known across the country. I do not think the 45 degree rule will last, and I think their legal break rule for 9-ball will not last. But they do experiment.
thanks, Whitey

 

[NH Steve]

please give 5 examples of nit picking situations that come up that are not covered in standard pool rules.

You don't have to look far for some of them -- just look at the "Slept ball and when to spot" thread for one.
Hell, when to spot a ball that isn't even slept might include another couple of One Pocket nit picking situations, not covered in general rules: So #2 could be when you run all the balls off the table, but two or more need to come up -- do they spot one at a time or all at once? #3 Could be when to spot a ball or balls in a handicap situation. #4 Could be (and often is) the question of what counts and what does not when the shooter makes a ball in their opponent's pocket and fouls on the stroke (not scratches -- fouls). But even on a scratch or the cue ball off the table, how would you know a ball made in the opponent's pocket also comes up, if there was no game rule that covered it? OK I guess that is already #5, but I didn't even mention, what is a legal break? What happens when you make a ball on the break? What happens when you scratch on the break? Don't I get BIH anywhere on the table after a foul? (I do when I play 9-ball and 8-Ball!). I believe I could go on, too

That might be close to 10, and I'm not even sure we are nit-picking yet, because some of those are kind of major questions lol.

For most experienced One Pocket players -- and especially for the 90% that tend to get along with other players -- they certainly don't need much for rules. And I also understand and appreciate that for you, any "rule question" is probably going to be answered by you in terms of what is most likely to keep your opponent at the table if you have the best of it -- because that is what matters most to you. But when players need a rule, they often REALLY NEED a rule -- especially tournament directors that are going to get called on to make a ruling, and they want to be consistent! I bet I get 6 calls a year from random players asking me what the rule is when something maybe a little out of the ordinary comes up -- and these are generally really experienced players asking me! The funniest thing though, is when I am involved in a game myself and my opponent comes up with a rule issue or question and they want to consult the rules -- do I tell them that if they google the chances are they are going to come up with rules I actually wrote lol

I expect we will also come out with a brief summary -- that is designed for experienced players, and just covers the basic questions players often have. But you still need the full nit picker's version for situations when it comes down to that. In fact, the full rules help make the brief summary rules work, because for example, you can just say "whole ball" and because of the complete rules as back up, the meaning of those two words is a lot clearer. But when/if we do come out with a short version, such as Dennis mentions, it will be consistent with our full rules of course.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Wow, Beatle's little statement raised quite a response. Doc, myself, and Steve. I feel in all fairness to Beatle, he is referring to general rules not game rules. As he mentioned, jumping a ball off the table, a general rule, the common knowledge of spotting a ball, a general rule. He also made an excellent point that players as with anything else have a hard time consuming a large written rule. That is true. But to correct that would in tale reconstructing the official rules completely and to write your own general rules, and that is not going to happen.

In 2004 Steve did not have much to work with as examples of OP rules, and still to this day there is not much. And BCA was probably as low as it ever has been, and their general rules was not of help either. He does have some repetitive general rules in his rules, but as he states; "why should I make members search through the WPA rules for some of these simple general rules. I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately we had to add more general rules, because some of WPA rules did not coincide with how Steve wants OP played.

Unless you are a WPA member / player and know the rules like a bible then it is very hard to find something. Steve had a member try to find something and it took ten minutes. I find it also very hard, and their titles are different for rules which makes it even harder. Like legal Shot: you will not find a heading, Legal Shot. It is; driven to rail, and then another rule pops up also, so you have to research two rules to get the rule.

Anyway I respect Steve and Doc's reply, as I hope they respect mine. And I do not think Beatle's thinking is to far off, for in the old days then yes 14.1 was the general rules. I'd rather have that than trying to wade through template racks, and what clothes I have to wear, women and men play, and If I attend another tournament other than a WPA I might be in trouble, there is so much stuff that does not relate to OP.

What amazes me, is that members are discussing 4. Safety - calling safe when pocketing a ball, much more than discussing anything else. I pointed out what we have improved upon in another post, but as of yet no comments. The Break, Whole Ball, BIH-BTL /w a warning, trapping and wedging is strengthen, close proximity shot foul criteria, the outgoing player always spots balls for the incoming player, disturb balls (cue ball foul only clarifications), and yes, if you disturb two balls without an effect upon the shot, it is restorable. Steve realized that if you are not allowed to restore them then a move could be made, I agree and many bcapl refs. agree. And players proper procedure so we do have to play poorly orchestrated games, so players are not moving your balls and coins.

Believe me, this all did not come about easily, and actually it did not come about for a year or longer after starting deliberating rules, and only then after a 3 to 4 month hiatus, in which Steve came back with a more clearer idea of what he wanted in his rules. It was a damn hard endeavor, and I am pleased how it turned out.

Believe me, there is much more to talk about than a safety or Beatle's statement.
Whitey

 

[12squared]

There was a post recently on Facebook about getting ball in hand behind the line after a scratch. The player hit a ball that was behind the line inadvertently during his stroke. It wasn't clear to me whether the cueball hit this ball behind the line during his stroke (unbelievably) or it was his cue or hand.

So, in the case that it was the cueball hitting this ball behind the line, what is the ruling?

Thanks

 

[Ratamon]

please give 5 examples of nit picking situations that come up that are not covered in standard pool rules.

1 - in a handicap situation who wins if I pocket both mine and opponent's out ball at the same time? Does the order/timing of pocketing matter?
2 - in a handicap situation (where there are enough balls for both to win ie 9-7, 10-6 etc), do any of the balls get spotted and when?
3 - same question as 2 but where there are not enough balls for both to win (say, 10-7, 11-6 etc)
4 - when to spot a slept ball - A) there are still balls on the table and B) there are none left)
5 - my opponent touches the cue ball that would have otherwise scratched. do I play from there or is it BIH-BTL ?
6 - when and how to spot owed balls if there are none left on the table - one by one or all at once?
7 - what happens if my opponent pockets more than one ball in my pocket (same inning but different shots) and then we come to realise what happened ? do all balls count for me or only the first one and the rest are to be spotted up?
8 - the pocket is full and the ball I shot last is leaning onto the top ball in the pocket but more than 50% is outside the pocket. Does it count?

That's more than five you've asked for beetle and I can probably think of a few more

 

[lll]

6.2 However, on a stroke when any other foul is committed (such as a push shot, double-hit or illegal ball contact),
any balls scored into the opponent’s pocket are to stay down and be counted for the opponent. Reference rule 5.1.
.................
is this new?
i would think an illegal shot means an illegal pocketing