Updating of our One Pocket rules

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

There was a post recently on Facebook about getting ball in hand behind the line after a scratch. The player hit a ball that was behind the line inadvertently during his stroke. It wasn't clear to me whether the cueball hit this ball behind the line during his stroke (unbelievably) or it was his cue or hand.

So, in the case that it was the cueball hitting this ball behind the line, what is the ruling?

Thanks

It is a standard foul. In today's modern rules both in WPA and BCAP/CSI the opponent does not warn the shooter that they are shooting at an object ball that is not actually playable. So the guy contacted an unplayable ball within the kitchen and a foul was called. This creates an argument, and then a referee is called after the fact to try and straighten things out.
But, if the shooter disturbed the object ball with his hand it is not a foul if the cue ball is no longer in hand.

In our recent rule updates we now have BIH-BTL that gives the opponent the power to warn the shooter prior to shooting that they are playing an unplayable ball within the kitchen. This is the gold standard rule that we all grew up playing pool by. I mean I am so really glad that Steve adopted this rule. For no member wants to call a foul on a fellow member such as in MOT competition, we would much rather warn.
Whitey

Note; about 2 years ago, WPA had it as a loss of game, if with BIH-BTL and you played an intentional safe on an object ball within the kitchen. This was the rule you guys were playing by not long ago! It just points out how our rules are so vulnerable to changes within the WPA rules

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

6.2 However, on a stroke when any other foul is committed (such as a push shot, double-hit or illegal ball contact),
any balls scored into the opponent’s pocket are to stay down and be counted for the opponent. Reference rule 5.1.
.................
is this new?
i would think an illegal shot means an illegal pocketing

Larry, I'll answer since I am on line right now. 6.2 is a rule that was untouched, no changes made. It just points out that a scratch or cb jumped off the table then a ball pocketed would not stay down in the opponent's pocket, but on any other foul it would count in the opponent's pocket.
This of course does not apply to the shooter's pocket.

You are right, normally in other games or if you were scoring, and a foul occurred then the pocketed ball it would be illegally pocketed, but in OP and a ball pocketed in the opponent's pocket does count.

But what is really crazy in some games no matter if you pocket a ball on a foul it stays down. No more spotting of balls anymore, and only 14.1 and the game of Rotation and OP do you have ball in hand in the kitchen. The world of pool as knew it, back in '73 when I stopped playing has changed and is so upside down now. Just some really bad rules out there.
thanks, Whitey

 

[darmoose]

6.2 However, on a stroke when any other foul is committed (such as a push shot, double-hit or illegal ball contact),
any balls scored into the opponent’s pocket are to stay down and be counted for the opponent. Reference rule 5.1.
.................
is this new?
i would think an illegal shot means an illegal pocketing

The reason for this rule is that a player can intentionally foul because he has to pocket a ball in the opponents pocket but can't scratch, and so he deliberately fouls like this to cause the ball to come up......

 

[gulfportdoc]

There was a post recently on Facebook about getting ball in hand behind the line after a scratch. The player hit a ball that was behind the line inadvertently during his stroke. It wasn't clear to me whether the cueball hit this ball behind the line during his stroke (unbelievably) or it was his cue or hand.

So, in the case that it was the cueball hitting this ball behind the line, what is the ruling?

Thanks

Dave, if you mean that the player, while shooting at a legal ball down table, inadvertently nipped another ball in the Kitchen during the course of that shot, then I expect that's just a normal foul.

If OTOH he actually was aiming at an illegal ball while in the Kitchen, then that would be a "serious foul", which could have several consequences; for example, loss of game or unsportsmanlike conduct.

If that's not true, perhaps the committee would comment on that circumstance.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Dave, if you mean that the player, while shooting at a legal ball down table, inadvertently nipped another ball in the Kitchen during the course of that shot, then I expect that's just a normal foul.

If OTOH he actually was aiming at an illegal ball while in the Kitchen, then that would be a "serious foul", which could have several consequences; for example, loss of game or unsportsmanlike conduct.

If that's not true, perhaps the committee would comment on that circumstance.

No worries Doc, the BIH-BTL rule has been saved and restored back to what it was of yesteryear. If you going to contact a ball within the kitchen the opponent or referee is now allowed to warn you. If the shooter ignores the warning and does not deliberate to an agreement, but goes ahead and shoots, then the opponent receives ball in hand.
thanks, Whitey

 

[gulfportdoc]

No worries Doc, the BIH-BTL rule has been saved and restored back to what it was of yesteryear. If you going to contact a ball within the kitchen the opponent or referee is now allowed to warn you. If the shooter ignores the warning and does not deliberate to an agreement, but goes ahead and shoots, then the opponent receives ball in hand.
thanks, Whitey

Well, I would certainly warn the opponent................... unless I was losing..

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Well, I would certainly warn the opponent................... unless I was losing..

Ok, that is funny! But if you do not warn the player the shot stands and there is no foul.
Good point! It appears there needs to be an update to our new rule that states; "if no warning is given then the shot stands". This is in the original BCA rule of long ago. I believe we need to add it to our BIH-BTL rule.

Whitey

 

[12squared]

Ok, so if I understand, if he hits the ball behind the line inadvertently, no foul. He just a good scolding. Is that true?

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Ok, so if I understand, if he hits the ball behind the line inadvertently, no foul. He just a good scolding. Is that true?

No, it is a foul to have the cb contact a ball within the kitchen before contacting a point out side of the kitchen. With the cb literally in your hand, as in placing it, and then if you contact a ball with your hand or cue ball when placing it is a foul. I believe it is rule 6.7.
But,
if your hand is no longer in contact with the cue ball and then you inadvertently contact a ball then it is not a foul.
Whitey

6.7 Spotting balls: It shall not be a foul to accidentally touch the cue ball while removing an object ball from an adjacent pocket, or when spotting a ball where the cue ball interferes. It shall be a foul for the incoming shooter to accidentally touch an object ball while placing the cue ball in a ball in hand situation. The outgoing player is responsible for spotting ball(s) at the end of their inning. Both players have the right to approve the exact spot prior to resuming play, and if the players themselves cannot agree on the spot, then they have to get someone else to spot the ball. Once play has resumed, a ball cannot be re-spotted unless both players agree.

 

[12squared]

No, it is a foul to have the cb contact a ball within the kitchen before contacting a point out side of the kitchen. With the cb literally in your hand, as in placing it, and then if you contact a ball with your hand or cue ball when placing it is a foul. I believe it is rule 6.7.
But,
if your hand is no longer in contact with the cue ball and then you inadvertently contact a ball then it is not a foul.
Whitey

6.7 Spotting balls: It shall not be a foul to accidentally touch the cue ball while removing an object ball from an adjacent pocket, or when spotting a ball where the cue ball interferes. It shall be a foul for the incoming shooter to accidentally touch an object ball while placing the cue ball in a ball in hand situation. The outgoing player is responsible for spotting ball(s) at the end of their inning. Both players have the right to approve the exact spot prior to resuming play, and if the players themselves cannot agree on the spot, then they have to get someone else to spot the ball. Once play has resumed, a ball cannot be re-spotted unless both players agree.

Really? No foul for striking a ball that is behind the ball if you stroke the cueball properly? I get the rest but that seems odd.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Really? No foul for striking a ball that is behind the ball if you stroke the cueball properly? I get the rest but that seems odd.

12squared, Really? No foul for striking a ball that is behind the ball head string if you stroke the cueball properly? Is that what you meant to say? If so that is a foul. I am having a hard time follow your question, so I wrote the below.

I am having a hard time figuring out your sentence. But, I believe you are saying; "that stroking the cue properly from the kitchen and making a legal shot on a ball outside of the kitchen, and then another single object ball within the kitchen is inadvertently disturbed either by the cue or hand, then is it a foul or not?

Am I following you? But the answer in the above scenario is, not a foul. For it would be treated as any other single disturbed ball.
Easy way to remember is; if the cb is still physically in your hand and you disturb a ball in placing the cb it is a foul.

I hope this is helpful. I did bring this up to Steve, so we might get a further explanation of this within the rule of; when the cb is placed and your hand is no longer in contact with the cb, and then a single ball is disturbed it is not a foul.
thanks, Whitey

 

[beatle]

we do need rules that cover things that dont come up in 14.1, like ***balls leaving the table*** and or running along the rail. ***slept balls,*** ***spotting balls***, etc. my point that i sway to, is make understandable rules for one pocket for the things that are one pocket special.
nothing wrong with having a section for new players.

my above post covers most of those rules that have just been mentioned that are needed,,

also along with a bunch more, a few that were also mentioned.

 

[12squared]

12squared, Really? No foul for striking a ball that is behind the ball head string if you stroke the cueball properly? Is that what you meant to say? If so that is a foul. I am having a hard time follow your question, so I wrote the below.

I am having a hard time figuring out your sentence. But, I believe you are saying; "that stroking the cue properly from the kitchen and making a legal shot on a ball outside of the kitchen, and then another single object ball within the kitchen is inadvertently disturbed either by the cue or hand, then is it a foul or not?

Am I following you? But the answer in the above scenario is, not a foul. For it would be treated as any other single disturbed ball.
Easy way to remember is; if the cb is still physically in your hand and you disturb a ball in placing the cb it is a foul.

I hope this is helpful. I did bring this up to Steve, so we might get a further explanation of this within the rule of; when the cb is placed and your hand is no longer in contact with the cb, and then a single ball is disturbed it is not a foul.
thanks, Whitey

Thanks Whitey, I wasn't clear but either was the person who asked. For being so understanding I sent you a treat to your cell.

 

[baby huey]

I do not agree with the opening break rule suggested where only any ball needs to touch a rail. When you soft break and leave the balls clustered you most certainly will prolong the length of the game which as I recall has been discussed ad naseum for years. Two balls should touch a rail for the break to be legimate.

 

[NH Steve]

I do not agree with the opening break rule suggested where only any ball needs to touch a rail. When you soft break and leave the balls clustered you most certainly will prolong the length of the game which as I recall has been discussed ad naseum for years. Two balls should touch a rail for the break to be legimate.

Honestly I do not think any sort of ordinary break has much to do with prolonged games. The wedge does though . Really any form of uptable game is what prolongs the game. I suppose you could break intentionally to try to force an uptable game if you wanted to — by kick breaking into the bottom of the stack gadzooks Dennis — we better make that one illegal lol

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I do not agree with the opening break rule suggested where only any ball needs to touch a rail. When you soft break and leave the balls clustered you most certainly will prolong the length of the game which as I recall has been discussed ad naseum for years. Two balls should touch a rail for the break to be legimate.

I agree for tournament TD's use, and for Challenge Matches. For the general game rules of OP I do not see the absolute need, I would not want to eliminate unusual breaks. But, I actually presented that to Steve to be included in an abbreviated very shorten OP rules to attract TD's and Challenge match use. Great rule for MOT, for we all know there is a time factor. The last thing they need is someone to do a head ball soft break!
This assures that will not happen! On most every break two balls hit a rail anyway, so no big deal for tournament and challenge use.

I offered this up when we were more full bore on this topic of having two balls contact a rail, either the cb and an ob, or two ob's. But, two balls have to contact a rail, unless an unusual rail first break is used then one ball contacts a rail. Just a compromise suggestion. This is for the general game rules. For tournaments and challenge matches two balls have to contact a rail. This is because of time factor and viewers entertainment.
thanks, Whitey

 

[Scrzbill]

please give 5 examples of nit picking situations that come up that are not covered in standard pool rules.

Just five, why not a hundred? In the south, it was considered a good hit if you double kissed a frozen ball. When I moved to the west, a frozen ball meant having your q (not to be confused with the freak show QAnon) ball make it to a rail if you stuck no other balls. I adjusted. I played a few games of one pocket and general rules apply playing a stranger. I try to get some basic understandings. Moving balls, where is the line for scratches, and off we go. People that I play usually are better than normal players so a basic understanding is granted. I haven't looked once at the "new" rules. If I'm not mistaken you can never read what has been written and still manage to have a game or play in a tournament. It has been my understanding of one pocket tournaments, that even if I don't play in the tournament, my goal is getting a game. Before my ability to make two balls in a row disappeared, I could make more in a game than playing a tournament. Now I'm just a stuck horse. Degenerate gamblers must be in action.

 

[baby huey]

The rules of 14.1 pretty much outline the rules of One Pocket. After all the original game of Oklahoma Straight Pool is One Pocket. The break in 14.1 was the same as One Pocket. Except for two object balls hitting a rail. Why did they do that? The answer is to open up the balls somewhat so that there wouldn't be a long defensive battle after the opening break. This was changed from Line Up Pool so as to see players run balls which is what the public wanted. Except for the "rail nurse" limitations in 14.1 pretty much everything else is the same in One Pocket and 14.1.

 

[darmoose]

Good rules are rules that hold up in all venues............too much consideration to adapting this game for converted nineballers who wanna go fast and think they are playing OP cause they can run a few balls .....is a slippery slope.

As Jerry has said previously, OP is a slow, complicated game with many subtle intricacies that make OP so much more satisfying than any other game on a pool table.

If one doesn't appreciate and understand all that one should play something else. For example, the DCC 45 degree rule is an abomination.....JMHO......

 

[NH Steve]

I have incorporated a few small tweaks to the rules update based on the conversation in this thread. Not every suggestion was included of course. But as far as I am concerned these rules are done and I am going to put them up for a general vote to adopt as our complete official rules. They may not be perfect, and they may include way too much for some players and not enough for other players lol, but I think they provide a pretty thorough and reasonably well organized backstop for 99.9% of the questions that might come up in a match, with reasonable answers that generally reflect how the majority of players play the game -- whether gambling, tournament, league or fun and the general challenge of it.

At some point I like the idea of a short checklist type of rules for easy dissemination (presumably what we want for our own MOT) -- but all the detail included in these complete rules sooner or later is still necessary because of the odd questions that surely will eventually come up between players -- hence this full version of complete rules.