Svb/shuff 2012 dcc #2

wincardona

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I think we had a very informative thread on this subject at one time but the WEI tables are all gone now.

Here's the shot I contributed to the thread, I may have even started the thread with this layout. Quite a few people didn't think the 11 ball could be banked back to pocket 'B'.

P.S. 11 is frozen to rail. It didn't come out that way when I saved the pic:(.

View attachment 6494

It sure looks a lot tougher in 3D:

View attachment 6495
Of course it can be banked to pocket B using either english. I really think that the hit is easier using inside (right) english with this shot, as opposed to outside english. I shoot a shot that's very similiar to this shot playing one pocket with success and use inside english shooting it. The cue ball will stay close to the top rail and the ball will be banked toward my pocket, it's one of the most beautiful shots to see when executed well. Set the shot up and try it. Start with positioning the cue ball to the left of where it is in the picture, maybe 6" to the left and then if you hit it well move it only 3" to the left and try again. I think you'll be impressed with the shot and the action that takes place. I shot the shot about two months ago in Vegas playing for $2,000 a game, hit it just about perfect, hung the ball and the cue ball hugged the rail and almost scratched in the top pocket on my side of the table. There were balls on my side rail that snookered the hanging ball, what a shot. Extreme center axis spin.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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Of course it can be banked to pocket B using either english. I really think that the hit is easier using inside (right) english with this shot, as opposed to outside english. I shoot a shot that's very similiar to this shot playing one pocket with success and use inside english shooting it. The cue ball will stay close to the top rail and the ball will be banked toward my pocket, it's one of the most beautiful shots to see when executed well. Set the shot up and try it. Start with positioning the cue ball to the left of where it is in the picture, maybe 6" to the left and then if you hit it well move it only 3" to the left and try again. I think you'll be impressed with the shot and the action that takes place. I shot the shot about two months ago in Vegas playing for $2,000 a game, hit it just about perfect, hung the ball and the cue ball hugged the rail and almost scratched in the top pocket on my side of the table. There were balls on my side rail that snookered the hanging ball, what a shot. Extreme center axis spin.

Dr. Bill
Sorry Dennis, I didn't see the other thread where you pointed out this shot and shot it like I described with success, great shot, who did you learn this shot from? Or did you find it by experimenting like I did? I have been experimenting with a lot of shots lately and have really improved in a few areas of my game, particularly with some banks that I have had trouble with. Now when they show i'll look at them differently and with confidence and that always helps. I have also remedied some of my weak areas by playing more cue ball as opposed to playing more object ball, that seems to have helped me in a lot of situations where I was unsure of how to play certain shots. But like I said about the moving of a pawn when you don't know what to do...play the cue ball...
But I remember what you said, in chess there's always a move.:D I guess you can say the same about one pocket, there's always a move just remember to play the cue ball.

Dr. Bill
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Sorry Dennis, I didn't see the other thread where you pointed out this shot and shot it like I described with success, great shot, who did you learn this shot from? Or did you find it by experimenting like I did?

Dr. Bill
Experimentation as I recall.

Dennis
 

gulfportdoc

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This is a great shot to know. It also works very nicely with the OB high up on the long rail for a bank back to one's pocket. I learned the shot from reading the lengthy discussion we had about it a couple of years ago here on the forum. It may have been Rod who showed the shot. I can't recall.

I kind of scoffed at the illustrations. But when I took it to the table and tried it out, I was amazed at how much backwards angle is created by shooting the CB with inside. I always used outside to create a wider angle on the OB, so using inside just didn't make sense.

I think part of it is that by using inside the CB actually deflects a little, causing a thinner hit on the OB. When an OB is cut that thin there can't be much english transfer from CB to OB. Anyway, I'm not sure of the physics behind it, but I do know that it works. Plus, the reverse spin keeps the CB hugging the rail.

Doc
 

wincardona

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This is a great shot to know. It also works very nicely with the OB high up on the long rail for a bank back to one's pocket. I learned the shot from reading the lengthy discussion we had about it a couple of years ago here on the forum. It may have been Rod who showed the shot. I can't recall.

I kind of scoffed at the illustrations. But when I took it to the table and tried it out, I was amazed at how much backwards angle is created by shooting the CB with inside. I always used outside to create a wider angle on the OB, so using inside just didn't make sense.

I think part of it is that by using inside the CB actually deflects a little, causing a thinner hit on the OB.(I agree) When an OB is cut that thin there can't be much english transfer from CB to OB. ( enough that the engilsh that is transferred wil retain because the object ball will go into the rail on a slide angle and the english will not be negated.) Anyway, I'm not sure of the physics behind it, but I do know that it works. Plus, the reverse spin keeps the CB hugging the rail.

Doc
I think you're on to something, I agree.

Dr. Bill
 
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lll

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This is a great shot to know. It also works very nicely with the OB high up on the long rail for a bank back to one's pocket. I learned the shot from reading the lengthy discussion we had about it a couple of years ago here on the forum. It may have been Rod who showed the shot. I can't recall.

I kind of scoffed at the illustrations. But when I took it to the table and tried it out, I was amazed at how much backwards angle is created by shooting the CB with inside. I always used outside to create a wider angle on the OB, so using inside just didn't make sense.

I think part of it is that by using inside the CB actually deflects a little, causing a thinner hit on the OB. When an OB is cut that thin there can't be much english transfer from CB to OB. Anyway, I'm not sure of the physics behind it, but I do know that it works. Plus, the reverse spin keeps the CB hugging the rail.
Doc
Doc
i think you are right in your analysis
i tried the shot this morning
made it once
always got it going in the right direction
all depended on the thinness of the hit i could get
very good shot to know
as mentioned keeping the cue ball up table is a big bonus

had more trouble with bill strouds shot of the object ball 2 diamonds up cue ball in your corner pocket
the bank tended to go about a half diamond up from my pocket
guess i have to hit it thinner also
had to go to work couldn't keep practicing it
will try tonight
 

wincardona

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Thanks - that answers my question. Also, I will assume that when a similar shot comes up, with a full rack of balls on the table, everyone will always be primarily concerned with sending the cue ball where you want it. Is this four-rail position that we see here an 80%+ shot for the top players?
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner but the answer to your question about the percentage of this shot by a good player is in the 90% range and higher. The Ghost will know more than me about this type of shot, considering he's a three cushion player. He also knows at what angle inside english will change it's identity and revert to a slide, and how much of the english the cue ball will retain, which then would ultimately change the direction the cue ball takes off the second cushion. I think that when the cue ball goes directly into the rail on the flattest of angles (straight angle)thats when inside english will offer the most resistance, then every degree of change will diminish the resistance factor until the angle goes into the slide angle. This is when and why inside english lengthens the two and three rail kick, or route. After the slide takes place the inside spin is retained on the cue ball and the angle going into the second rail is flatter, plus the inside spin is retained and the cue ball now takes a straighter angle departure off the second rail, due to both the angle going into the rail and also with the resistance of the inside spin that's still on the cue ball.

I hope that I have cleared up this mess and you now know and understand, how and why this happens.

Maybe the Ghost or Freddie can clean up my description with the shot so every one can understand it. Providing they agree with it.
Dr. Bill
 

gulfportdoc

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( enough that the engilsh that is transferred wil retain because the object ball will go into the rail on a slide angle and the english will not be negated.) ... I think you're on to something, I agree.

Dr. Bill
Bill and Larry-- As I understand what Patrick Johnson has pointed out, there is negligible spin transfer from CB to OB when the ball is cut that thin. If there were any spin transfer, then using inside would actually cause the OB to come short, not long.

So I'm thinking that the negligible amount of transfer only serves to negate the shortening tendency, and thereby allow the OB to widen out.

I wish there were an example of this on Dr. Dave's Univ. of Colo. site. But the best he offers is spin transfer at various speeds; not this subject of a thin inside hit to lengthen a bank. Anyway, the shot is very strong.

Doc
 

Banks

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Bill and Larry-- As I understand what Patrick Johnson has pointed out, there is negligible spin transfer from CB to OB when the ball is cut that thin. If there were any spin transfer, then using inside would actually cause the OB to come short, not long.

I wish there were an example of this on Dr. Dave's Univ. of Colo. site. But the best he offers is spin transfer at various speeds; not this subject of a thin inside hit to lengthen a bank.
I've always seen that kind of shot as more of a skid against the rail, having mis-hit with inside while trying to do something too touchy. A similar amount of outside should spin the ball away with a normal hit, like the back-angle bank that Dennis shows in the bank thread(I'm guessing it's the same one from here). With the ball against the rail or very near to it, I certainly don't see how you can get a reverse-spin kind of rub against the rail especially from that far away.

If you're cutting away from the ball, center imparts the same type of english on the ball as you could try to get with inside, for the most part. You could skid a ball of the rail with that, too, but it still depends on a funny hit. Trying to do that is about as practical to me as trying to skid a ball around another.

Or I could be wrong. :eek:
 

gulfportdoc

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Banks, you're probably right about center ball having the same effect as inside. If a thin hit (less than quarter-ball) imparts, for all practical purposes, no spin transfer onto an OB, then theoretically at least, center ball should be as good as any CB english-- in regards the bank itself. Although the holding effect of the CB is at least as desirable as pocketing the ball.

Are you saying that the OB reacts the way it does because of "skid"?

I may have to break down and Email Jewett. He hasn't been on here for awhile anyway. Also, this would be a great subject for the Dr. Dave library of super slo-mo shots, because it doesn't seem to make any sense to many of us.

Doc
 

Island Drive

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Banks, you're probably right about center ball having the same effect as inside. If a thin hit (less than quarter-ball) imparts, for all practical purposes, no spin transfer onto an OB, then theoretically at least, center ball should be as good as any CB english-- in regards the bank itself. Although the holding effect of the CB is at least as desirable as pocketing the ball.

Are you saying that the OB reacts the way it does because of "skid"?

I may have to break down and Email Jewett. He hasn't been on here for awhile anyway. Also, this would be a great subject for the Dr. Dave library of super slo-mo shots, because it doesn't seem to make any sense to many of us.

Doc

I would think the swiping action of reverse english with whitey coming 'across' the point of contact on the obj. ball, as opposed to a center ball hit would be different, and moreso with wet and dirty conditions. I would think a 1/4 hit ball on an obj. would have great transfer of spin as it's the midway point from the middle to the outside edge of the obj. ball.
 

Banks

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Banks, you're probably right about center ball having the same effect as inside. If a thin hit (less than quarter-ball) imparts, for all practical purposes, no spin transfer onto an OB, then theoretically at least, center ball should be as good as any CB english-- in regards the bank itself. Although the holding effect of the CB is at least as desirable as pocketing the ball.

Are you saying that the OB reacts the way it does because of "skid"?

I may have to break down and Email Jewett. He hasn't been on here for awhile anyway. Also, this would be a great subject for the Dr. Dave library of super slo-mo shots, because it doesn't seem to make any sense to many of us.

Doc
Well, what I mean is that the OB isn't hitting the rail well enough to get the full bounce effect. Kinda of like using inside on a rail shot so that it hugs the rail - the OB just kind of rubs against the rail, instead of bouncing on it. That's kind of how I see bank shots widening using inside. Not something I really want to try to count on, though I have been practicing a lot using top, bottom and combinations of inside/outside to change angles that I feel a little off on and it's working pretty well.

I think Dennis once asked if banks are easier(and should be hit) without using spin or hitting them harder than pocket speed. This bank should answer that question.. you hit them how they need to be hit(which includes the perceived angle by the shooter).
 

Banks

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I would think the swiping action of reverse english with whitey coming 'across' the point of contact on the obj. ball, as opposed to a center ball hit would be different, and moreso with wet and dirty conditions. I would think a 1/4 hit ball on an obj. would have great transfer of spin as it's the midway point from the middle to the outside edge of the obj. ball.
Yes, it can bite a little more, I think, but that's about it. Unless there's something special that I don't understand past the 45-degree angle or something, I don't think a non-funky hit using inside can both shorten up a bank and widen it.

If you're talking about transfer, a medium-slow hit transfers the most if I recall correctly. Too slow and you just kind of rub against the ball, too fast and the speed overcomes the friction. How often does anyone here think that they can widen a bank using inside as opposed to outside for the same shot? 10 out of 10? 1 out of 10? I'd like to see the results. I've been wrong plenty of times before, usually to the benefit of my game, but this one I'm really not so sure about.
 

vapros

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Dr. Bill says that a slide occurs at some point, and that is the only thing I can see that might open a bank. Even with a very thin hit, there will be a little bit of holding english on the object ball, and that will shorten the bank unless there is another factor. The slide must be it.

I will be glad to see all the info we can get from other experts on this thread. In truth, we would seldom be tempted to try this shot in one-pocket, except at the end game, because of the difficulty in controlling the cue ball.
 

wincardona

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Bill and Larry-- As I understand what Patrick Johnson has pointed out, there is negligible spin transfer from CB to OB when the ball is cut that thin. If there were any spin transfer, then using inside would actually cause the OB to come short, not long. ( not necessarily true, if the object ball being banked is cut finely enough to put it in the slide angle then the inside english (as little as there is) will help the ball to open up.)

So I'm thinking that the negligible amount of transfer only serves to negate the shortening tendency, and thereby allow the OB to widen out. ( Providing that the angle allows it)

I wish there were an example of this on Dr. Dave's Univ. of Colo. site. But the best he offers is spin transfer at various speeds; not this subject of a thin inside hit to lengthen a bank. Anyway, the shot is very strong.

Doc
Doc, inside english clearly lengthens, or opens the bank up on certain angles but not all angles. The english transferred to the object ball serves a double role to open the bank or lengthen the bank. On angles that are flat the object ball carrying the opposite english (not running)slides off the cushion, that helps to lengthen the shot not only that but the spin that is transferred acts as a masse and helps the ball to stay closer to the banked rail.

You can try it with just using the cue ball starting from a marked position and use both left engish and right english, and then look at the results that you get. The cue ball with the running english will not slide or open up nearly as much as the cue ball carrying the opposite english.

Dr. Bill
 
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androd

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Anytime someone showed me a shot and I made it, I said man that's cool, thanks a lot. I've never cared why it works or what makes it work and still don't. Once I see it, I believe it and it goes in the memory bank, no questions asked. :D
Rod.
 

wincardona

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Anytime someone showed me a shot and I made it, I said man that's cool, thanks a lot. I've never cared why it works or what makes it work and still don't. Once I see it, I believe it and it goes in the memory bank, no questions asked. :D
Rod.
You've probably always been a bottom line guy, who cares how or why you do it...just do it...
I don't have time for all these reasons why or why not...just do it...

I envy you Rod with your just about stress free life style, and your laid back demeanor, you're probably going to live to be 103:cool: And when someone asked you how you managed to live that long you'l probably say something like " I never tried to figure it out, I just kept on being me"

Stay cool Rod.

Dr. Bill
 

androd

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You've probably always been a bottom line guy, who cares how or why you do it...just do it...
I don't have time for all these reasons why or why not...just do it...

I envy you Rod with your just about stress free life style, and your laid back demeanor, you're probably going to live to be 103:cool: And when someone asked you how you managed to live that long you'l probably say something like " I never tried to figure it out, I just kept on being me"

Stay cool Rod.

Dr. Bill
Thanks for the thought (103) but I've already got the hard time done.
If I do hope you're around DR. (KERVORKIAN)
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I think Dennis once asked if banks are easier(and should be hit) without using spin or hitting them harder than pocket speed. This bank should answer that question.. you hit them how they need to be hit(which includes the perceived angle by the shooter).
Banks,

You would be extremely hard-pressed to ever find any thread on this site where I asked anybody how to shoot a shot, bank or otherwise. I already know how to play pool and I already know how to bank and can only remember asking one person, one time, how to make a bank shot. He told me and I went to the poolroom and made it on my first try.(Thanks again Freddy:D)

If you ever find a post where I wrote what you say I wrote I will send you a check for $500.

Perhaps you're referencing this post of mine:
Cowboy Dennis said:
The point is Pel, every bank has a proper speed with which it should be hit. It doesn't matter who is shooting it, how much he's stuck, whether he's up or not, the bank calls for a certain speed and that's the speed it should be struck with.
Many very good players never master this or understand it.

Dennis
You can find it here:http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6833

It's post #3. It's a month old.

P.S. I would never in life write or say anything as ridiculous as what you recall me saying.

Dennis
 
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