Svb/shuff 2012 dcc #2

wincardona

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Dr. Bill, in our discussion about Cowboy's shot, I think that the Ghost and I are on the same page. We are discussing the english necessary to take the cb around the table as shown, not running english on the object ball. Of course you are right, it will be holding english on the object ball and will surely hold it up, but I think getting the cb right is much more important than the bank shot in this instance. Making the bank would be lagniappe. Agree?
as crazy as it sounds I was talking about the cue ball and how angles and english change the course the cue ball takes. The most crucial and deciding variable in figuring out how to play the cue ball is the angle it 's on going into the first rail.

This is very confusing to most and my description of why things happen are probably more confusing than the problem of figuring out how to execute certain shots. I'll try to explain, bare with me.

Lets take the shot that Dennis chose, the bank with the cue ball swinging three cushions around the table. After the cue ball strikes the 15 ball it will go directly to the side rail on a flat like angle into the rail. Using inside english will shorten the angle because of the angle it is on going into the side rail. But if the angle going into the first rail was a steeper angle inside english would then lengthen the shot, because you would then get a slide with the cue ball after contacting the first rail, as opposed to a shorter action by going directly into the 1 st. rail at a flatter angle. Make sense?

Practice shooting shots by just using the cue ball and no other balls, and experiment how english and angles work with one another. Then you'll develop a better feel for how inside english can change the direction of a shot, depending on the angle it goes into the first rail on. You can do this by shooting the cue ball three in the corner using inside english, then change the angle of the cue ball and use inside english and see the difference. Sometimes using inside english will shorten the shot on three rail shots, and then again on steeper angles it will lengthen the shot for a three rail shot. It's a very interesting part of developing a feel for controlling the cue ball for kicks and playing position.

I hope I didn't confuse you, it's difficult for me to explain but I know that it's happening.:eek:

Dr. Bill
 

lll

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Dr. Bill, in our discussion about Cowboy's shot, I think that the Ghost and I are on the same page. We are discussing the english necessary to take the cb around the table as shown, not running english on the object ball. Of course you are right, it will be holding english on the object ball and will surely hold it up, but I think getting the cb right is much more important than the bank shot in this instance. Making the bank would be lagniappe. Agree?
vapros
i think dr. bill was talking about the cue ball not object ball since the object ball isnt going into a 2nd or 3rd rail
whether you use low middle or high INSIDE english to provide running english on the CUE ball when it hits the first rail has to do with the your target on the first rail to get you where you want on the 3rd rail for the 4th rail

i think we agree the object is to get the 15 in a favorable position for us and hide the cue ball behind that mess on the foot rail
jmho
icbw
 

vapros

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I don't think I understand all I know about this, but I'm sort of like Cleopatra, when she told that Roman dude, "Sir, I am not prone to argue."
 

lll

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..
I don't think I understand all I know about this, but I'm sort of like Cleopatra, when she told that Roman dude, "Sir, I am not prone to argue."
vv2.jpg
dont be scared of this diagram....:eek:.....:D
not sure if this is what dr. bill is trying to say
although i used a straight line diagraming an origin point like in billiards
pretend the there was an object ball you caromd off of to give the yellow and red angle into the first cushion
the yellow being a flatter angle goes long
the red being steeper goes short
p.s. i would think of starting point of the cue ball as i diagrammed it and use the corner 5 system and the "tracks" to predict where the cue ball would go,
also please note in this diagram as in "the cowboys" shot inside english is running english
this should be a nice way to start the day to look at a diagram like that and a long winded post..:eek:..:sorry
be sure to have your coffee first....:heh

i just noticed the red line should be coming from the second not third diamond from the corner (cue ball position 4 not 3 1/2 in the corner 5 system)
its the principle i did nt want to re do the diagram)
 
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vapros

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No, I'm not scared of the diagram, which is not the same as following it. You are right that inside english on the cue ball would be running english. That was established. My point was that going four rails with holding english would require that you hit the ball much harder, in addition to changing the pattern.

Dr. Bill provided an explanation. I don't doubt that he was correct - he generally is - but it was a bit too deep for me. I might never have discovered four-rails for position, by myself, but now I know it works, so I have made at least that much progress in recent years. And just in time, wouldn't you say? After all, I was the marbles champion of the fourth grade for three straight years.
 

lll

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well shane decides to hit the 6 but instead of going to the long rail as suggested by bill s. he chose to draw down between the 10 ball and the solid
the 6 as it was coming across towards shanes pocket nudged that solid and the double kiss with the cue ball helped to wedge the cue ball on the foot rail
sb4.jpg

sb7.jpg
 

lll

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for what its worth
brandon and shane jockeyed a few moves
ultimately brandon won because the balls were better positioned for him when shane made a mistake
 

gulfportdoc

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Larry, that's a nice diagram. But as I understand it, the tracks illustrated are for a 5 X 10 table, such as in Hoppe's Billiards As It Should Be Played. Since a 9' table is smaller, the angles are shorter.

So for example, to shoot the CB from one corner pocket 3 rails to the other, one has to aim at diamond 2 or 2-1/4 (not 3) with running english to have it go long enough to pocket it. Naturally it all depends upon the age of the table, the type of rails, and the cloth condition. Perhaps on new, dry cloth it would lengthen enough to follow the 10' track, but on most 9' tables it won't.

Doc
 

gulfportdoc

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well shane decides to hit the 6 but instead of going to the long rail as suggested by bill s. he chose to draw down between the 10 ball and the solid
the 6 as it was coming across towards shanes pocket nudged that solid and the double kiss with the cue ball helped to wedge the cue ball on the foot rail.
Well, like they say, there's never any luck in one-pocket...:lol

Doc
 

lll

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Larry, that's a nice diagram. But as I understand it, the tracks illustrated are for a 5 X 10 table, such as in Hoppe's Billiards As It Should Be Played. Since a 9' table is smaller, the angles are shorter.

So for example, to shoot the CB from one corner pocket 3 rails to the other, one has to aim at diamond 2 or 2-1/4 (not 3) with running english to have it go long enough to pocket it. Naturally it all depends upon the age of the table, the type of rails, and the cloth condition. Perhaps on new, dry cloth it would lengthen enough to follow the 10' track, but on most 9' tables it won't.

Doc
art you are not getting what i was trying to convey
billy was talking about angles into the first rail
so coming at diamond 3 (30) at different angles
ends up at different tracks to places long or short of the corner
it has nothing to do with the differences between a billiard table and a 9 ft table
 

lll

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art you are correct as far as on a pool table 2ish goes to 3ish to the corner
whereas on a billard table 3 goes to 2 to the corner
the table was the first one i could find and used it for the concept rather than absolute accuracy on a pool table
 

wincardona

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Inside english will contradict itself or double cross what you think inside englis does depending on the angle the cue ball is on going into the first rail. There is an exact angle that inside english will change from a resistance to a slide, and if you want to shorten the angle with that shot (the slide angle) you will then either have to draw the cue ball or use running english.

Take for instance the three rail kick from your pocket to your opponents pocket. Usually the 2 diamond will take you toward the pocket with running english but if you use inside english the shot will go much too long because the inside english will be in the slide angle as opposed to the resisting angle

Inside english when kicking three cushions or even two cushions can be very beneficial to the shooter providing he understands the characteristic changes and at what angle they happen. But the key to understanding the action of inside english will be better learned by the angle your on going into the first rail, and then develop the understanding of the action the cue ball takes.


For many I haven't said anything you didn't already know, but for some it was hopefully helpful. Sorry for my complicated description of how it works, I just know that it does.:D

Dr. Bill
 

vapros

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Dr. Bill, help me with this terminology. Dennis will hit the cue ball with right english, (running english) to help send it around the table. But when it hits the 15 ball, we call it holding english because it shortens the bank. Ain't that right?

If he uses left spin instead, that would be holding english on the cue ball when it hits the rail, but what do we call the hit on the 15? Would it be running, since it opens the angle? So . . . which shot would correctly be called 'inside' english?

It's a legitimate question that I couldn't ask anyone else. You're a doctor. :eek:
 

androd

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Dr. Bill, help me with this terminology. Dennis will hit the cue ball with right english, (running english) to help send it around the table. But when it hits the 15 ball, we call it holding english because it shortens the bank. Ain't that right?

If he uses left spin instead, that would be holding english on the cue ball when it hits the rail, but what do we call the hit on the 15? Would it be running, since it opens the angle? So . . . which shot would correctly be called 'inside' english?

It's a legitimate question that I couldn't ask anyone else. You're a doctor. :eek:
Vapros, all that's probably needed is a high CB. The inside holds until the cut becomes too thin, then the opposite occurs and the bank stretches out, that's why so often this shot goes toward the side instead of the corner.
Rod.
P.S. I know this isn't real clear but it's hard to explain.
 

lll

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Vapros, all that's probably needed is a high CB. The inside holds until the cut becomes too thin, then the opposite occurs and the bank stretches out, that's why so often this shot goes toward the side instead of the corner.
Rod.
P.S. I know this isn't real clear but it's hard to explain.
i think the confusion is depending on the shot
cutting a ball to the left or right
inside english can be running eglish on the cue ball after it caroms and the hits the rail or holding english after hit hits the object ball and hits the rail
in dennis example inside english on the cue ball is running english when it hits the first rail
icbw
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Vapros, all that's probably needed is a high CB. The inside holds until the cut becomes too thin, then the opposite occurs and the bank stretches out, that's why so often this shot goes toward the side instead of the corner.
Rod.
P.S. I know this isn't real clear but it's hard to explain.
I think we had a very informative thread on this subject at one time but the WEI tables are all gone now.

Here's the shot I contributed to the thread, I may have even started the thread with this layout. Quite a few people didn't think the 11 ball could be banked back to pocket 'B'.

P.S. 11 is frozen to rail. It didn't come out that way when I saved the pic:(.

cbd's shot.jpg

It sure looks a lot tougher in 3D:

cbd's shot.jpg2.jpg
 

wincardona

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Dr. Bill, help me with this terminology. Dennis will hit the cue ball with right english, (running english) to help send it around the table. But when it hits the 15 ball, we call it holding english because it shortens the bank. Ain't that right?

If he uses left spin instead, that would be holding english on the cue ball when it hits the rail, but what do we call the hit on the 15? Would it be running, since it opens the angle? So . . . which shot would correctly be called 'inside' english?

It's a legitimate question that I couldn't ask anyone else. You're a doctor. :eek:
Anytime inside english is used on the cue ball the object ball will be shortened, to a degree. Like Rod pointed out that english will turn the object ball until the hit is fine enough (cut enough) that the friction will be negligible.

The term inside and outside english always refers to the cue ball, the way I understand it.

Dr. Bill
 

vapros

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Thanks - that answers my question. Also, I will assume that when a similar shot comes up, with a full rack of balls on the table, everyone will always be primarily concerned with sending the cue ball where you want it. Is this four-rail position that we see here an 80%+ shot for the top players?
 
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