Science Schmience: CB Follow/Draw for Banks

Patrick Johnson

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When you aim at the gutter in front of the rail, are you referring to where the rail meets the table bed?
I mean the worn track parallel to the nose of the rail a little less than half a ball out from it (made by balls being forced down as they rebound), where the center of the ball changes direction. It's a conveniently visible spot (unless the cloth is new) to visualize as the apex of the ideal equal-angle rebound.

If you want to get real precise, remember that the ball compresses the cushion and slides/rolls along it a short distance while it's rebounding, "rounding off" the point of that ideal equal angle. So the actual apex of the equal angle is closer to the cushion nose itself.

Of course, this is all about using ideal equal angles as references because they can be quickly and objectively measured - balls rarely follow the equal angle path exactly.

pj
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John Brumback

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pj, Three things. 1. We are talking about hitting the cue ball with draw and this having an effect on the path of a banked object ball.
2. Your stroke makes a difference. There are strokes and there are strokes. You need a stroke to show any truth here.
3. Momentary is enough. Like a soft masse, momentary English taking can change the path of the ball.
"Momentary is enough". Wise words if you ask me. John B.
 

petie

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If 'roll' or English induced by the ball rolling on the cloth nullified English, it would, it seems, nullify left or right English as well. It doesn't seem to though. Shoot a long hold-up bank and you can see that there is plenty of hold-up English to shorten the angle of the bank quite a bit even after the ball has traveled the length of the table to get to the rail.
 

Patrick Johnson

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If 'roll' or English induced by the ball rolling on the cloth nullified English, it would, it seems, nullify left or right English as well. It doesn't seem to though. Shoot a long hold-up bank and you can see that there is plenty of hold-up English to shorten the angle of the bank quite a bit even after the ball has traveled the length of the table to get to the rail.
Rolling follow doesn't nullify follow English, it's the same thing. That's the point - by adding follow English you're just trying to do "manually" what will occur naturally anyway (assuming the OB would be rolling anyway when it hits the rail). Transferred follow on the OB can never be more than "natural rolling" follow, so if the OB would be rolling anyway you're wasting your effort. This is why transferred follow only matters when the OB is close to the rail where it wouldn't have time to gain much or any forward roll.

John Brumback:
Doesn't matter if it's close to the rail or out in the middle of the table.
straightback:
It certainly does for banks hit with a slower pace. For banks played at typical bank pool cinch speed, it does not.
Sorry John, but straightback is right. If the OB would otherwise be rolling when it hits the rail, then the shot will turn out the same with or without transferred follow.

I think bankers are more likely to miss this distinction because they tend to hit their shots at higher speeds than in other games (like straightback says above). This means the CB doesn't get rolling as often, so transferred follow can have an effect.

Why do bankers hit their shots harder? For the same reason, but in reverse: to eliminate variables like whether or not the CB is rolling when it hits the rail. They (mostly) won't say it's for that specific reason, because they (mostly) don't know what's happening at that level of detail - they just know "if I do this, that happens".

pj
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John Brumback

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Rolling follow doesn't nullify follow English, it's the same thing. That's the point - by adding follow English you're just trying to do "manually" what will occur naturally anyway (assuming the OB would be rolling anyway when it hits the rail). Transferred follow on the OB can never be more than "natural rolling" follow, so if the OB would be rolling anyway you're wasting your effort. This is why transferred follow only matters when the OB is close to the rail where it wouldn't have time to gain much or any forward roll.


Sorry John, but straightback is right. If the OB would otherwise be rolling when it hits the rail, then the shot will turn out the same with or without transferred follow.

I think bankers are more likely to miss this distinction because they tend to hit their shots at higher speeds than in other games (like straightback says above). This means the CB doesn't get rolling as often, so transferred follow can have an effect.

Why do bankers hit their shots harder? For the same reason, but in reverse: to eliminate variables like whether or not the CB is rolling when it hits the rail. They (mostly) won't say it's for that specific reason, because they (mostly) don't know what's happening at that level of detail - they just know "if I do this, that happens".

pj
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Just curious PJ,do you gamble? I might be up that way pretty soon and was just wondering how you and I could play some banks? I would like to show you up close what I can do to those balls:p.Nothin big,maybe a dime a set?:) Thanks buddy,John B.
 

Patrick Johnson

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Just curious PJ,do you gamble? I might be up that way pretty soon and was just wondering how you and I could play some banks? I would like to show you up close what I can do to those balls:p.Nothin big,maybe a dime a set?:) Thanks buddy,John B.
You say the time and place and I'm there, but not to gamble with you. I've seen your game (even bought your DVD as soon as it came out), and I'd love to play you for the experience and the fun - but I don't have any financial suicide in me.

pj
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Pelican

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I agree with all of this also. I try to be very careful about what I tell people about pool and banking. You would never hear me say that you have to shoot hard to shorten or hold a bank shot. That's just another old myth:lol On top of that...if you shoot too hard ( with low) the oball will bounce and go even longer:eek: I try not to get into the science part of a pool shot but I do feel that I know what works good and what doesn't. I can show better than I can tell is what I'm saying:p John B.
I know I learn a lot easier from someone that can show rather than tell. I want some lessons with you JB. Wanted some with Freddie too but waited too long. Want to sit with Mr D and talk about the old fight game, if he makes it. We getting old folks. Got to start doing things I want to do before I can't do them anymore. I may not learn a damn thing but we will have fun. Later, Pel

Oh, if you want a stakehorse John, give me a call. We can discuss an investment option plan that will satisfy both of our retirement objectives - I believe those objectives are booze and women

The Pelican School of Financial happiness. :D
 
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petie

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Rolling follow doesn't nullify follow English, it's the same thing. That's the point - by adding follow English you're just trying to do "manually" what will occur naturally anyway (assuming the OB would be rolling anyway when it hits the rail). Transferred follow on the OB can never be more than "natural rolling" follow, so if the OB would be rolling anyway you're wasting your effort. This is why transferred follow only matters when the OB is close to the rail where it wouldn't have time to gain much or any forward roll.


Sorry John, but straightback is right. If the OB would otherwise be rolling when it hits the rail, then the shot will turn out the same with or without transferred follow.

I think bankers are more likely to miss this distinction because they tend to hit their shots at higher speeds than in other games (like straightback says above). This means the CB doesn't get rolling as often, so transferred follow can have an effect.

Why do bankers hit their shots harder? For the same reason, but in reverse: to eliminate variables like whether or not the CB is rolling when it hits the rail. They (mostly) won't say it's for that specific reason, because they (mostly) don't know what's happening at that level of detail - they just know "if I do this, that happens".

pj
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PJ,
My recent comments were about left or right English.
 

Patrick Johnson

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PJ,
My recent comments were about left or right English.
Sorry if I misunderstood you, petie. From what you said (quoted below), it seemed like you were talking about both.

petie:
If 'roll' or English induced by the ball rolling on the cloth nullified English, it would, it seems, nullify left or right English as well. It doesn't seem to though.
I only addressed the part that I thought was about follow because that was the most on-topic part - but I also disagree partially with the part about sidespin. I agree that rolling follow (or draw, for that matter) doesn't nullify sidespin completely, but it does reduce it compared to sidespin with no follow or draw.

pj
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John Brumback

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What the hell

What the hell

is a "fluid stroke":confused: I asked the cball and it didn't know either:eek: LMAO..John B.
 

John Brumback

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Anyone that uses the diamonds playing banks....... has got 9 to 6. Anyone:) And I don't even know why they put the stupid things on the table. I've just been hittin some and feel like playin. Flip it:lol John B
 

straightback

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Am I my the onlyne finding it ironic that John Brumbeck is asking questions about "fluid" strokes?? Guy hits 'em like god.
 

gulfportdoc

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What the hell is a "fluid stroke":confused: I asked the cball and it didn't know either:eek: LMAO..John B.
Good point. And this will get some discussion: given the same cue stick angle, the CB does not react differently whether the stroke is smooth, followed-thru, punched, or anything in between.

~Doc
 

Patrick Johnson

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Good point. And this will get some discussion: given the same cue stick angle, the CB does not react differently whether the stroke is smooth, followed-thru, punched, or anything in between.

~Doc
What he said. Spot-Angle-Speed. The whole enchilada.

That's why this game is so easy.

pj
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