Science Schmience: CB Follow/Draw for Banks

Patrick Johnson

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In a recent thread on AzB, folks (at least one of them a world class banker) are saying that draw on the CB makes banks go longer by transferring follow to the OB. I'm skeptical (go figure).

I think this is only true when the OB is on or very close to the rail or hit very hard. Because otherwise the OB very quickly picks up more follow from cloth friction than the small amount that can be transferred from the CB (in other words, the CB doesn't add to the effect).

For similar reasons (only more so), I think follow on the CB can only rarely shorten banks by putting draw on the OB.

However, I'm not a great banker, so I thought I'd check my skepticism with you 1P players who are, of necessity, good (and versatile) bankers. Whadya think?

pj
chgo
 

petie

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In a recent thread on AzB, folks (at least one of them a world class banker) are saying that draw on the CB makes banks go longer by transferring follow to the OB. I'm skeptical (go figure).

I think this is only true when the OB is on or very close to the rail or hit very hard. Because otherwise the OB very quickly picks up more follow from cloth friction than the small amount that can be transferred from the CB (in other words, the CB doesn't add to the effect).

For similar reasons (only more so), I think follow on the CB can only rarely shorten banks by putting draw on the OB.

However, I'm not a great banker, so I thought I'd check my skepticism with you 1P players who are, of necessity, good (and versatile) bankers. Whadya think?

pj
chgo
PJ,
The cloth cannot put 'power follow' on the object ball. I shall define 'power follow' as follow English that is spinning faster than the rotation of the ball when it is just rolling. I.e. you push a ball down the table and it is soon rolling. It makes one revolution for every circumference value of travel. It can rotate no faster than this without extra or 'power' English. Draw on the cue ball can do this and after it hits the cushion, it is now powering in the opposite direction as rolling English. When the ball is traveling on an angle as it does on all bank shots, the 'power English' definitely curves the ball. Get and read "Banking With the Beard" and "The Gospool." He aint lyin'. Freddie could bank.
 

androd

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High English on softer shots opens the bank wider. On hard shots it doesn't.
Draw shots with spin lose English when hit hard.
English is exacerbated when you raise the butt of your cue.
Rod.
P.S. That about the extent of my knowledge.
 

Mkbtank

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Science Schmience: CB Follow/Draw for Banks

Hard to question banking advice from John Brumback and Freddy both. I learned my real banking from Freddy's books and he says the same thing.
 

mr3cushion

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Freddy and I spoke MANY times about the effects the CB has on the OB when it contacts the cushions. Which is VERY important in 3C for playing position, I have to agree with what Petie posted and from my own experience about what effect the CB has regarding "follow or draw" on it.

 

Patrick Johnson

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PJ,
The cloth cannot put 'power follow' on the object ball. I shall define 'power follow' as follow English that is spinning faster than the rotation of the ball when it is just rolling. I.e. you push a ball down the table and it is soon rolling. It makes one revolution for every circumference value of travel. It can rotate no faster than this without extra or 'power' English. Draw on the cue ball can do this
Thanks, petie - this claim (that transferred follow can be greater than "natural roll" follow) is exactly what I'm skeptical about. My friend Mike Page has done a video experiment that shows you couldn't even get much "overspin" follow on the OB by hitting it directly with your cue stick - so getting even momentary overspin transferred to the OB from the CB seems almost impossible.

[ame="http://youtu.be/1WzyxhCl0vs"]"Fargo Billiards" YouTube Channel[/ame]

When the ball is traveling on an angle as it does on all bank shots, the 'power English' definitely curves the ball.
"Natural rolling" follow curves the ball - no overspin needed. You can easily see this by having a friend roll a ball into the rail while you stand so you're looking directly along its rebound path.

pj
chgo
 
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petie

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pj, Three things. 1. We are talking about hitting the cue ball with draw and this having an effect on the path of a banked object ball.
2. Your stroke makes a difference. There are strokes and there are strokes. You need a stroke to show any truth here.
3. Momentary is enough. Like a soft masse, momentary English taking can change the path of the ball.
 

Patrick Johnson

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pj, Three things. 1. We are talking about hitting the cue ball with draw and this having an effect on the path of a banked object ball.
Agreed. And only (I assume) on the OB's path as it rebounds from the rail (not going into the rail).

2. Your stroke makes a difference. There are strokes and there are strokes. You need a stroke to show any truth here.
I think you only need to be able to hit the CB with draw. Is something more needed?

3. Momentary is enough. Like a soft masse, momentary English taking can change the path of the ball.
This is more to my point. Momentary overspin can only affect the OB's rotation for a moment, and it usually takes longer than that for the OB to reach the rail. That's why I say it can only make a difference if the OB is on or very close to the rail.

And even then the difference isn't that the OB has overspin, but that it has any follow at all. Transferred follow can cause the OB to gain some follow (not a lot) instantly, so it can make a difference when the OB is so close to the rail (or hit so hard) that it would otherwise slide into it. I think many players misinterpret this difference to mean the OB gets overspin from the CB - and that might lead them to believe it works in situations where it doesn't (i.e., when the OB starts more than a few inches from the rail and isn't hit hard).

pj
chgo

P.S. To be clear: my point is not that transferred follow (or draw) never affects the bank path - it's that it only affects the bank path in certain limited circumstances, and only to a small degree even then.
 
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Patrick Johnson

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Hard to question banking advice from John Brumback and Freddy both.
Right - nobody questions these guys because they're the Big Banking Dogs. And I have great respect for both of them and their proven banking expertise.

But they're not infallible (OK, Freddy is now), and the great respect in which they're (rightly) held means that even when they say something that might be wrong or needs clarification it usually doesn't happen. Unless there's somebody around willing to suffer the slings and arrows of incensed fans... :)

pj
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Mkbtank

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Science Schmience: CB Follow/Draw for Banks

Right - nobody questions these guys because they're the Big Banking Dogs. And I have great respect for both of them and their proven banking expertise.



But they're not infallible (OK, Freddy is now), and the great respect in which they're (rightly) held means that even when they say something that might be wrong or needs clarification it usually doesn't happen. Unless there's somebody around willing to suffer the slings and arrows of incensed fans... :)



pj

chgo

lol. No slings or arrows intended here PJ. Questioning should always be ok.
 

petie

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I don't have the patience or the interest to search all over the web but I know I have seen demos and proofs of these phenomena.
 

beatle

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pj you are on the right track. players confuse stroke with imaginary things happening to the balls. a few thins make banks go long or short and you have said most or all of them. hitting softer compresses the rail less so the angle is more open. harder does the opposite.

so balls far off the rail the angle it hits the rail at and the speed are the things that determine the angle. or if a little english is on the object ball.

people confuse draw with shortening the bank. but generally with draw you are really hitting the bank harder so it goes shorter.

its good to question the pros as most are at that speed because of ability rather than vast knowledge.
 

LSJohn

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Thanks, petie - this claim (that transferred follow can be greater than "natural roll" follow) is exactly what I'm skeptical about. My friend Mike Page has done a video experiment that shows you couldn't even get much "overspin" follow on the OB by hitting it directly with your cue stick - so getting even momentary overspin transferred to the OB from the CB seems almost impossible.

"Fargo Billiards" YouTube Channel



pj
chgo

Isn't overspin on the OB exactly what is used to make the front ball of two spotted balls go toward a corner pocket? (just sayin' :) )

Interesting video. Thanks
 

John Brumback

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Isn't overspin on the OB exactly what is used to make the front ball of two spotted balls go toward a corner pocket? (just sayin' :) )

Interesting video. Thanks
Nice question. :) It's hard to make that shot without a bunch of draw...no? JB
 

androd

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Isn't overspin on the OB exactly what is used to make the front ball of two spotted balls go toward a corner pocket? (just sayin' :) )

Interesting video. Thanks
Yep. :):p:D Many frozen caroms are forced forward with draw. Unfrozen the first ball can be made to draw a little with high or middle ball.
Rod.
 
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Cary

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You guys stop, you're going to confuse him.

That frozen spot shot was the first thing I thought of on this thread. The second was the amount of action you get when you use draw on an eight or nine ball break (ditto force follow, but that's a different story).
 

beatle

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you use low on breaks to hold the cue ball. not for speed. it will actually slow you down some. best for speed(power) on your break in nine ball is center ball or a tiny bit of high.

a big thanks to john b. for starting all of this discussion as its something for all of us to think about.
 

Patrick Johnson

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LSJohn:
Isn't overspin on the OB exactly what is used to make the front ball of two spotted balls go toward a corner pocket? (just sayin' )

Interesting video. Thanks
Nice question. It's hard to make that shot without a bunch of draw...no? JB
That is a good question - I expected to see it. :)

Yes, some follow is transferred to the OB for that shot. And since the first OB is momentarily trapped between the CB and the second OB (like a bank with the OB frozen to the rail), more than the usual amount of follow is transferred - but still not more than "natural rolling" follow. I don't believe that draw on the CB, even in the most advantageous cases like this, can ever transfer enough follow to the OB to equal rolling follow.

Also, it's not commonly known, but the OB is forced forward quite a bit in that shot even without draw on the CB - I'm told (by people who should know, like Bob Jewett, Ron Shepard and Dr. Dave) that it can theoretically be made without any transferred follow if it's hit at just the right angle (aimed at a point 1/10 of the way from the end rail center diamond to the corner pocket). I've never been able to make it that way, but I believe these guys, especially when they all agree.

pj
chgo
 
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