Science Schmience: CB Follow/Draw for Banks

John Brumback

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What he said. Spot-Angle-Speed. The whole enchilada.

That's why this game is so easy.

pj
chgo
The speed needs to match the angle and the spot. That's been one of my secrets for years until I came out with my dvd.Oh well,gotta strike while the irons hot:( JB
 

petie

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Sorry if I misunderstood you, petie. From what you said (quoted below), it seemed like you were talking about both.


I only addressed the part that I thought was about follow because that was the most on-topic part - but I also disagree partially with the part about sidespin. I agree that rolling follow (or draw, for that matter) doesn't nullify sidespin completely, but it does reduce it compared to sidespin with no follow or draw.

pj
chgo
To be clear, you were the one who asserted the nullification of follow or draw. I was posing the dilemma that if it truly does as you say, why doesn't it do the same for right or left? The demonstration of what I am talking about is when you shoot a long hold-up bank. You can really change the angle quite significantly.
 

petie

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I have tried to believe that the stroke makes no difference to the shot as long as you hit the right spot on the cue ball at the same angle and with the same speed. I think this subject might be more complex than some have postulated. Maybe it's the speed of the stroke, maybe its the acceleration of the stroke. Maybe the length of the follow through helps to determine the ratio of cue ball speed vs. cue ball rotation speed. Look at some of Efren's shots--lots of spin, very slow speed. Maybe its the cueing technique that allows for him to do this. Ya think?
 

John Brumback

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I have tried to believe that the stroke makes no difference to the shot as long as you hit the right spot on the cue ball at the same angle and with the same speed. I think this subject might be more complex than some have postulated. Maybe it's the speed of the stroke, maybe its the acceleration of the stroke. Maybe the length of the follow through helps to determine the ratio of cue ball speed vs. cue ball rotation speed. Look at some of Efren's shots--lots of spin, very slow speed. Maybe its the cueing technique that allows for him to do this. Ya think?
Petie,just remember that the only thing that the the cball knows... is you hit it with a cue stick and that you only hit it one time.......:) John B.
 

John Brumback

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Hit it fluid like Allen Hopkins, John. You're doing it wrong.
I've tried Allen's stroke. It just aint for me.:lol I've often wondered if he developed that stroke from his hustling days? I know I used to use goofy lookin strokes and bridges when I used to lay down the lemon:p John B.
 

straightback

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With respect to this whole spot-angle-speed versus strokes, I have exactly one comment, and stay with me here. The type of stroke you employ is merely correlated with the results you want from the cue ball. I agree, the CB doesn't know or care about anything except the "big three." However, IN ORDER TO GET to the big three, we use different strokes and grips. These strokes and grip do NOT in and of themselves make the difference, but they do allow us to deliver the cue in a manner that will produce the result we desire.

A good example is this - you need nearly no speed and maximum 3 or 9 o'clock english (hey, this is 1p, you better get used to these!) You cannot hit this well with a really hard grip or with a fast stroke that decelerates quickly. You are typically better served to hit it with a light grip. In this case, as in many others, different grips and strokes are used to basically "get your body out of the way of the shot." Stated in other terms, it allows you to prevent bunching up of your arm muscles.

To conclude, I use differing strokes and grips because they allow me to get to the proper angle, speed and spin. In this way, they are correlated with the results I want, but they do not CAUSE them.

P.S. another another thing to think about, on top of angle-speed-spin is the amount of time a tip spends on the cue ball. In my above example, consider "dragging" your tip across the face of the ball. I contend you can get more English on these shots than you could by picking a point out and hitting it straight. 3C players hit these shots a lot, I think they refer to it as "screwing" the ball.
 
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John Brumback

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I knew I liked you, Rod.
Ya'll ever tried Blantons? It's made 30 miles from me in Frankfort,KY.It's the best whiskey I have ever had.Knob creek is very good also. Blantons Gold is their top of the line but the Gold is very hard to come by and If you do find it,it's like 300 bucks a bottle:eek: I come across a lil every once in a while only because I have a few buds that work there:p JB

PS: good whiskey and pool,what a life ya'll lead:)
 

straightback

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I've tried Allen's stroke. It just aint for me.:lol I've often wondered if he developed that stroke from his hustling days? I know I used to use goofy lookin strokes and bridges when I used to lay down the lemon:p John B.
I was just kidding with you, John. Your bank stroke is a thing of beauty. I would liken it to a Jordan fadeaway, Johnny's break, Boris Becker's serve, etc. Efficient, powerful, accurate. You remember playing in tournaments at the Eight Ball in Owensboro in the late 80's?
 

straightback

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Ya'll ever tried Blantons? It's made 30 miles from me in Frankfort,KY.It's the best whiskey I have ever had.Knob creek is very good also. Blantons Gold is their top of the line but the Gold is very hard to come by and If you do find it,it's like 300 bucks a bottle:eek: I come across a lil every once in a while only because I have a few buds that work there:p JB

PS: good whiskey and pool,what a life ya'll lead:)
Blanton's is great, though even the regular 12 year old is around 60 per bottle. I have done extensive testing on all those bourbons bottled in Central KY and my favorite is Knob Creek.
 

John Brumback

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I was just kidding with you, John. Your bank stroke is a thing of beauty. I would liken it to a Jordan fadeaway, Johnny's break, Boris Becker's serve, etc. Efficient, powerful, accurate. You remember playing in tournaments at the Eight Ball in Owensboro in the late 80's?
Well thanks,I knew or thought you were just messin with me:) Hell yes! the 8ball poolroom was one of my favorite poolrooms in the country.I just about lived there for a few years:lol Pool time was a big 1$ an hour on first rate GC's :) JB

PS: I just for the life of me can't put my finger on you though:confused: Dan Clark,right?
 

John Brumback

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Blanton's is great, though even the regular 12 year old is around 60 per bottle. I have done extensive testing on all those bourbons bottled in Central KY and my favorite is Knob Creek.
Ok then,I'm going to try Knob Creek again here real soon.I'm a beer drinker until it starts getting chilly.It's that time:lol JB
 

straightback

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We met briefly at the DCC a few years ago. At the 8-ball, I was young then. You probably remember Ray Schulz, Darryl Stites and some of the other regulars. I became a fan when I saw you run 6 racks there one night. One of them was an impossible pattern where you banked a couple balls to keep your run alive. Yeah, $1 an hour and great cheeseburgers to boot. I was a tennis champ at the time so Ray taught me pool and I taught him tennis.

The 8 Ball just closed it doors. Those GC III's were top notch. I got one of the ones from Nick's old place, The Rack n Cue. 1983 GCIII for 800 bucks!

You'll like the Knob - my wife comes home sometimes and we've got a bottle a nearly drunk. She always says, "fell in the Creek, again, didn't ya?" Course she always fixes herself one, too.
 

John Brumback

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With respect to this whole spot-angle-speed versus strokes, I have exactly one comment, and stay with me here. The type of stroke you employ is merely correlated with the results you want from the cue ball. I agree, the CB doesn't know or care about anything except the "big three." However, IN ORDER TO GET to the big three, we use different strokes and grips. These strokes and grip do NOT in and of themselves make the difference, but they do allow us to deliver the cue in a manner that will produce the result we desire.

A good example is this - you need nearly no speed and maximum 3 or 9 o'clock english (hey, this is 1p, you better get used to these!) You cannot hit this well with a really hard grip or with a fast stroke that decelerates quickly. You are typically better served to hit it with a light grip. In this case, as in many others, different grips and strokes are used to basically "get your body out of the way of the shot." Stated in other terms, it allows you to prevent bunching up of your arm muscles.

To conclude, I use differing strokes and grips because they allow me to get to the proper angle, speed and spin. In this way, they are correlated with the results I want, but they do not CAUSE them.

P.S. another another thing to think about, on top of angle-speed-spin is the amount of time a tip spends on the cue ball. In my above example, consider "dragging" your tip across the face of the ball. I contend you can get more English on these shots than you could by picking a point out and hitting it straight. 3C players hit these shots a lot, I think they refer to it as "screwing" the ball.
I could be wrong but I thought (screwing) the cball meant drawing it. JB
 

Patrick Johnson

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I use differing strokes and grips because they allow me to get to the proper angle, speed and spin. In this way, they are correlated with the results I want, but they do not CAUSE them.
Well put - agree completely.

P.S. another another thing to think about, on top of angle-speed-spin is the amount of time a tip spends on the cue ball. In my above example, consider "dragging" your tip across the face of the ball. I contend you can get more English on these shots than you could by picking a point out and hitting it straight. 3C players hit these shots a lot, I think they refer to it as "screwing" the ball.
It's easy to test - and I'd bet money you can do anything with a straight stroke that can be done with a "swipe" stroke.

pj
chgo
 
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