Billy Incardona how good was Artie

petie

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Thanks for saying that, i appreciate that. Im not sure who you are LOL LOL You definitely know me though because im always trying to have fun and make people laugh. I have come on this site for a long time but just decided to join. I dont know how to set up a wei diagram i wish i did. There were some shots in mine and Billys matches that he passed up that i thought were the right shot given the circumstances and im sure he thought i passed up some shots also. It would be cool to set up the shots and see what people think.
I'm the guy you tortured for a little while when you first got to the derby. I was so glad when my buddies showed up and rescued me from a game I could never win. But you were a complete gentleman and a lot of fun.

There are quite a few guys who I'm sure would be most willing to help you with the WEI. I am not one of them (not because I'm not willing but because I'm not qualified) and it seems the WEI can be tempramental for many but I'll try to list a few of the ones I know could be of help: Dick "SJD", Larry "lll", Dennis "Cowboy", Greg "Cali Red"(if he's OK?), Rod "Androd", Steve "New Hampshire Steve", Miller, "Miller", to name a few. I'm sure there are more but you really only need one. Probably the best is Greg but I don't knw how his health is. Dennis, Dick and Larry are strong. Please don't anyone feel slighted because I don't really know what I'm talking about.
 

androd

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I'm the guy you tortured for a little while when you first got to the derby. I was so glad when my buddies showed up and rescued me from a game I could never win. But you were a complete gentleman and a lot of fun.

There are quite a few guys who I'm sure would be most willing to help you with the WEI. I am not one of them (not because I'm not willing but because I'm not qualified) and it seems the WEI can be tempramental for many but I'll try to list a few of the ones I know could be of help: Dick "SJD", Larry "lll", Dennis "Cowboy", Greg "Cali Red"(if he's OK?), Rod "Androd", Steve "New Hampshire Steve", Miller, "Miller", to name a few. I'm sure there are more but you really only need one. Probably the best is Greg but I don't knw how his health is. Dennis, Dick and Larry are strong. Please don't anyone feel slighted because I don't really know what I'm talking about.
We know you're joking about SJDuck, you troublemaker you.
The directions from which I learned are in an above sticky.
Just apply yourself and you'll get it. You may practice all you want before you post. The site has changed a little but is OK. (You will have to sign up) I will answer all PM's. :)
Rod.
 

onepockethacker

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Allow me to offer my perspective on the modern day players, as opposed to old school players. Back in the day when there were only a hand full of players that played one pocket at a top level, moving was at a premium. The reason moving was at a premium is because the best players pretty much knew the best shot for just about any situation, unlike today where the right shot is familiar to most players that play one pocket. So with this understanding one can understand that a good ball striker (like Artie) with a very good understanding of the game will beat great ball strikers that have a limited understanding of the game. Today's players have a much better understanding of the game, just as today's boxers, golfers, and players that play all other sports have a much better understanding of their respective games. Artie wasn't considered a great ball striker, he won with his discipline and understanding of the right way to play (for him). Artie won with smarts and patience, but imo it takes more than smarts and patience for a good ball striker to beat the best ball strikers of today playing one pocket, simply because one pocket players today are much more educated than players 40 years ago.:frus :sorry Like I said in an earlier post, moving is over rated because moving (the correct shot) isn't a big mystery any more which shifts the edge back to the players that have the best execution skills.

Billy I.
That is exactly the same point of view i have. If i said it i would be told that i dont know what im talking about because i wasnt around when the older guys were in their prime. Im glad you said this. My feeling is if you think you are going to beat Efren by sitting around ducking and nitting your crazy. You have to play intelligently but you have to have the firepower, confidence, and BALLS to come with a shot and get the hell out when he gives you a chance. If you think you were going to beat Efren by sitting back and waiting for him to giftwrap a game for you i think your crazy.
 

onepockethacker

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I'm the guy you tortured for a little while when you first got to the derby. I was so glad when my buddies showed up and rescued me from a game I could never win. But you were a complete gentleman and a lot of fun.

There are quite a few guys who I'm sure would be most willing to help you with the WEI. I am not one of them (not because I'm not willing but because I'm not qualified) and it seems the WEI can be tempramental for many but I'll try to list a few of the ones I know could be of help: Dick "SJD", Larry "lll", Dennis "Cowboy", Greg "Cali Red"(if he's OK?), Rod "Androd", Steve "New Hampshire Steve", Miller, "Miller", to name a few. I'm sure there are more but you really only need one. Probably the best is Greg but I don't knw how his health is. Dennis, Dick and Larry are strong. Please don't anyone feel slighted because I don't really know what I'm talking about.
Hi, how are you doing? Yes i enjoyed meeting you and knocking them around with you. You were also a complete gentleman. Hope to see ya there next year
 

onepockethacker

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Allow me to offer my perspective on the modern day players, as opposed to old school players. Back in the day when there were only a hand full of players that played one pocket at a top level, moving was at a premium. The reason moving was at a premium is because the best players pretty much knew the best shot for just about any situation, unlike today where the right shot is familiar to most players that play one pocket. So with this understanding one can understand that a good ball striker (like Artie) with a very good understanding of the game will beat great ball strikers that have a limited understanding of the game. Today's players have a much better understanding of the game, just as today's boxers, golfers, and players that play all other sports have a much better understanding of their respective games. Artie wasn't considered a great ball striker, he won with his discipline and understanding of the right way to play (for him). Artie won with smarts and patience, but imo it takes more than smarts and patience for a good ball striker to beat the best ball strikers of today playing one pocket, simply because one pocket players today are much more educated than players 40 years ago.:frus :sorry Like I said in an earlier post, moving is over rated because moving (the correct shot) isn't a big mystery any more which shifts the edge back to the players that have the best execution skills.

Billy I.
This is the main reason i directed the original question to you Billy. You were a top player, a top commentator, and i think you are unbiased enough to give the best opinion on this subject. Its very tough to give an unbiased opinion. In general guys from out west like Jay Helfert and San jose Dick say Ronnie was the best (right or wrong that is who they saw over and over) Guys from Chicago like Freddie or Bill Smith etc. say Artie was the best ( right or wrong that is who they saw over and over) Back then there wasnt the technology as there is today. One pocket shot and moves videos, one pocket matches ( youtube and accustats) have greatly educated a whole generation of players and sped up the learning process. With the amount of one pocket players playing the game now i find it amazing that Efren still is probably the best one pocket player in the world at his age.
 

wincardona

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This is the main reason i directed the original question to you Billy. You were a top player, a top commentator, and i think you are unbiased enough to give the best opinion on this subject. Its very tough to give an unbiased opinion. In general guys from out west like Jay Helfert and San jose Dick say Ronnie was the best (right or wrong that is who they saw over and over) Guys from Chicago like Freddie or Bill Smith etc. say Artie was the best ( right or wrong that is who they saw over and over) Back then there wasnt the technology as there is today. One pocket shot and moves videos, one pocket matches ( youtube and accustats) have greatly educated a whole generation of players and sped up the learning process. With the amount of one pocket players playing the game now i find it amazing that Efren still is probably the best one pocket player in the world at his age.
A perfect example to validate what I believe is Shane Van Boening winning the last TWO one pocket titles at the DCC. Van Boening isn't technically the best, or even one of the best movers in the game but his execution skills and his dedication to pool has given him the ability to win major one pocket titles. Yes he does have enough experience with understanding the correct shot (for him)that has given him the ability to win tournaments. If you understand the concept of playing solid one pocket all that's left is executing it, with that understanding it's no mystery why players like Van Boening and even Strickland can win major one pocket tournaments.

Reyes is at the age where I believe that he is no longer the best one pocket player in the world, not only has his shot making skills diminished but he has lost patience playing the game as well. That was evidenced in his match against Van Boening at The Derby. (sad) But make no mistake about it for nearly 20 years he was clearly the best, and imco the best ever.

Billy I.
 

onepockethacker

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A perfect example to validate what I believe is Shane Van Boening winning the last TWO one pocket titles at the DCC. Van Boening isn't technically the best, or even one of the best movers in the game but his execution skills and his dedication to pool has given him the ability to win major one pocket titles. Yes he does have enough experience with understanding the correct shot (for him)that has given him the ability to win tournaments. If you understand the concept of playing solid one pocket all that's left is executing it, with that understanding it's no mystery why players like Van Boening and even Strickland can win major one pocket tournaments.

Reyes is at the age where I believe that he is no longer the best one pocket player in the world, not only has his shot making skills diminished but he has lost patience playing the game as well. That was evidenced in his match against Van Boening at The Derby. (sad) But make no mistake about it for nearly 20 years he was clearly the best, and imco the best ever.

Billy I.
I didnt watch any of the tournament matches at the Derby this year. I wish i would of seen the Van Boening and Reyes match you referred to. I figure since he won The U.S. open one pocket championship and he still placed high at the Derby he still might be the best. One thing i think you have to consider is maybe at Efrens age he cant put up with the grueling tournament schedule at the Derby without getting worn down. However in my opinion i believe if someone wanted to play him say a race to 8 for say $ 50,000 without anything for the runner up i think Efren would definitely come out on top.
 

petie

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I didn't see the Efren SVB match but I did see the Efren Richie match and it was heart breaking. Efren wasn't 60% of himself and Richie of all people beat him. Efren looked like he would raher be anywhere but there and as if he hadn't practiced a lick in months. Maybe he thought he could tread water through the tournament and by the finals, he would be in stroke. I don't really believe he has lost it for good unless he wants to. As you get old it takes you longer to recover from adversity than it did when you were younger. But you have to be motivated. Is Efren motivated any longer?
 

Cowboy Dennis

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OPH is new to the site and we all agree he is most welcome. Moreover, I think he will be one of the contributors who will teach us from time to time. That said, despite impressions and misunderstandings which are so often and easily created on internet fora, this one being no exception, Robert is one of the most fun loving and good humored guys you will ever meet. Bottom line, if you don't like him after you meet him, something's wrong with you.
Petie,

He said he will let it drop & so will I. It's nobody else's business.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Why are you assuming that it was Artie demanding 11 to 8? Race Track Phil had about 30k in his hip and he wanted Artie to play even. Ronnie just happens to love that kind of game where he takes the break and gives up a spot. Artie also happens to like the other side of that game. Believe me, them playing even wouldnt have been a problem for anybody, Ronnie, Artie or Race Track Phil. Ronnie had an open 25k invite to play Artie even at North Shore, giving him plenty of time to come up with a backer.


Beard
Freddy,

No assumptions at all on my end, AB clearly stated in the thread I quoted from that the game was RA's idea and I believe it for the reasons you stated.

My only problem is this: You cannot accept 11-8 from RA and give him the break and then 20-30 years later claim to be the best, that's all.

RA is at fault as much as AB, if either one of them had any balls they would've matched up even. RA's huge ego made him offer 11-8 if he got the break and AB's natural "don't give a sucker an even break" ego made him accept it.

The bottom line will always be this: they didn't match up playing even, for whatever reason and nobody can now claim that either was better than the other.

P.S. AB claimed RA couldn't get staked at that game. Is that a surprise? Who the **** would stake RA giving 11-8 to AB? Apparently nobody.

P.Ps. Your last sentence is troubling. Why didn't AB offer to go to Cali and play RA if he thought he was the best? It reminds me of a post by someone whose name I shall not mention where he states that AB never beat any top player in an extended match outside of Chicago. I don't know if that's true but nobody contested it when he wrote it, unless I'm remembering wrong.

Dennis
 

Fast Lenny

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Since SVB won back to back DCC one pocket titles is he a shoe in for the 1 Pocket HOF?
 

fred bentivegna

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I am not Artie's lawyer

I am not Artie's lawyer

Freddy,

No assumptions at all on my end, AB clearly stated in the thread I quoted from that the game was RA's idea and I believe it for the reasons you stated.

My only problem is this: You cannot accept 11-8 from RA and give him the break and then 20-30 years later claim to be the best, that's all.

RA is at fault as much as AB, if either one of them had any balls they would've matched up even. RA's huge ego made him offer 11-8 if he got the break and AB's natural "don't give a sucker an even break" ego made him accept it.

The bottom line will always be this: they didn't match up playing even, for whatever reason and nobody can now claim that either was better than the other.

P.S. AB claimed RA couldn't get staked at that game. Is that a surprise? Who the **** would stake RA giving 11-8 to AB? Apparently nobody.

P.Ps. Your last sentence is troubling. Why didn't AB offer to go to Cali and play RA if he thought he was the best? It reminds me of a post by someone whose name I shall not mention where he states that AB never beat any top player in an extended match outside of Chicago. I don't know if that's true but nobody contested it when he wrote it, unless I'm remembering wrong.

Dennis
I say what I say re Artie when I get the urge. Everybody has their own opinion in this matter, as apparently even you do. What I seldom get credit for on this forum is the fact that I have played both players in question -- and all the others ones mentioned -- many times.
My last sentence re their playing in Chicago -- taken in context -- refers to the fact that the 11 to 8 thing took place in Milwaukee -- and the offer was very valid because Chicago was only about an hour away, so they were both available for a game, and all that was missing from an even game was Ronnie and a backer.
Artie never wanted to be regarded as the best player -- when he was playing -- he didnt want that notoriety. Totally unlike me, who sought credibility. It was only after he retired, and it no longer mattered monetarily that he got to bragging. Thats when I came aboard and put my 2 cents in.
Everybody else has.

Beard

Keep in mind, I hold him just as responsible as you do for not stretching out more and really testing his talents. To me it was wasteful. But that is how he did things and he was very successful doing it. I guess we are all put together a little differently.

Plus he aint the only top player that didnt step out the way I would have if I had had their talent. And dont get me started on how many super top guns never bet their own. That's a charge you could never make against Artie. For the record, the only time I ever saw Bugs bet his own it was against me and I beat him even for $400 at 30 a game.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I say what I say re Artie when I get the urge. Everybody has their own opinion in this matter, as apparently even you do. What I seldom get credit for on this forum is the fact that I have played both players in question -- and all the others ones mentioned -- many times.
My last sentence re their playing in Chicago -- taken in context -- refers to the fact that the 11 to 8 thing took place in Milwaukee -- and the offer was very valid because Chicago was only about an hour away, so they were both available for a game, and all that was missing from an even game was Ronnie and a backer.
Artie never wanted to be regarded as the best player -- when he was playing -- he didnt want that notoriety. Totally unlike me, who sought credibility. It was only after he retired, and it no longer mattered monetarily that he got to bragging. Thats when I came aboard and put my 2 cents in.
Everybody else has.

Beard

Keep in mind, I hold him just as responsible as you do for not stretching out more and really testing his talents. To me it was wasteful. But that is how he did things and he was very successful doing it. I guess we are all put together a little differently.

Plus he aint the only top player that didnt step out the way I would have if I had had their talent. And dont get me started on how many super top guns never bet their own. That's a charge you could never make against Artie. For the record, the only time I ever saw Bugs bet his own it was against me and I beat him even for $400 at 30 a game.
Freddy,

I think you & I both feel pretty much the same way about AB vs. RA especially since you watched their "Match Of The Century" (as did lll).

P.S. So-called "players" who walk into a room and can't bet their own can kiss my ass, they aren't even poolplayers to me.

Dennis
 

wincardona

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Freddy,

I think you & I both feel pretty much the same way about AB vs. RA especially since you watched their "Match Of The Century" (as did lll).

P.S. So-called "players" who walk into a room and can't bet their own can kiss my ass, they aren't even poolplayers to me.

Dennis
R.A. against A.B. " Match Of The Century" :confused: Am I missing something??
I never heard of them playing anything, or am I mistaken?

Billy I.
 

Skin

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I asked Nick Varner one time on the chat when he stepped into the mic box how Artie played. He said Artie was a "grinder" and a "real good player".

That's all I have. :)

Skin < always bet his own
 

NH Steve

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Since SVB won back to back DCC one pocket titles is he a shoe in for the 1 Pocket HOF?
My own opinion is that the players I favor for the One Pocket HOF are the players that really adopted the game -- they lived and breathed and survived on it and advocated for it for years. That does not include the super all-around players that just happened to also be able to win at One Pocket because it was another cue game. That is why I will not be voting for Harold Worst, Jim Rempe or Mike Sigel for the HOF. Shane is only 28, so he has a lot of future in front of him. I also give him credit for getting in the box for cash at the game pretty frequently. By the time he is old enough it will be pretty clear whether he embraced the game or not.

Artie, from all I have heard -- not just from Freddy :D -- is that he played a carefully controlled game as well or better than anybody. I.e., he may not have had the firepower of the other "best" but he had the strategy, defense, patience and master plan, along with sufficient shooting skills to compete successfully with the best in his own manner. Even his detractors seem to agree he was about the best at that style of play. By the way, before I ever heard, "What would Efren do?", I heard, "What would Artie do?" -- and if you have listened to many of the older Accustats One Pocket videos you will know what mean.
 
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