Billy Incardona how good was Artie

onepockethacker

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I was reading alot of the past threads and there is alot of different opinions on how good Artie was. In your opinion wth them all in their prime(im assuming you saw all of them play in their prime but i could be wrong) How would you rate the following- Efren, Ronnnie Allen, Artie, Bugs, Parica, Cliff Joyner, Scott Frost
 

wincardona

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I was reading alot of the past threads and there is alot of different opinions on how good Artie was. In your opinion wth them all in their prime(im assuming you saw all of them play in their prime but i could be wrong) How would you rate the following- Efren, Ronnnie Allen, Artie, Bugs, Parica, Cliff Joyner, Scott Frost
I would put Reyes a ball better than all of them in their prime, I then would make Allen, Bugs, Frost, and Joyner very close, they were all great offensive players. As far as moving they all had their own way of moving that was very effective, as did Reyes. Artie to me is a mystery, I never really watched Artie when he was playing his best but as the Chicago grapevine say's he was maybe the best. Artie to my knowledge never played Allen, Kelly, Joyner, or Frost but he did play Bugs and did well against him. Parica I would have to put slightly behind the group.

Billy I.
 

onepockethacker

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I would put Reyes a ball better than all of them in their prime, I then would make Allen, Bugs, Frost, and Joyner very close, they were all great offensive players. As far as moving they all had their own way of moving that was very effective, as did Reyes. Artie to me is a mystery, I never really watched Artie when he was playing his best but as the Chicago grapevine say's he was maybe the best. Artie to my knowledge never played Allen, Kelly, Joyner, or Frost but he did play Bugs and did well against him. Parica I would have to put slightly behind the group.

Billy I.
I was under the impression you saw Artie play in his prime so i was wrong about that. I thought you would have rated Parica in his prime at least as tough as some of the others.
 

usblues

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The eyes.....

The eyes.....

.....have it.And then they don't.Frost,Joyner?Grady,Straw?Jersey Red,SJD?Di Maggio,Ruth?Cobb,Gehrig?Cleopatra,Madonna?MM,Ava?I think I just read where they killed Marie Antionette when she was 16!The point is I'm not Billy.And either is he.But he was as good as all of them for awhile.And he'll be the first to tell you,cheers,JacK
 
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Fast Lenny

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I would put Reyes a ball better than all of them in their prime, I then would make Allen, Bugs, Frost, and Joyner very close, they were all great offensive players. As far as moving they all had their own way of moving that was very effective, as did Reyes. Artie to me is a mystery, I never really watched Artie when he was playing his best but as the Chicago grapevine say's he was maybe the best. Artie to my knowledge never played Allen, Kelly, Joyner, or Frost but he did play Bugs and did well against him. Parica I would have to put slightly behind the group.

Billy I.
I thought Frost and Artie matched up a few years back or so in Vegas, I might be mistaken. Not sure about the handicap though.
 

fred bentivegna

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Acid test

Acid test

If you locked all of them up in a room and gave each of them a certain amount of money and they had to play each other for a month constantly, at the end of the month all but Artie would be broke. It's just that simple.

Beard
 

lll

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I thought Frost and Artie matched up a few years back or so in Vegas, I might be mistaken. Not sure about the handicap though.
even if they did i think because of age and being in prime stroke differences im not sure it would reflect how artie would do in his prime
jmho
icbw
 

tylerdurden

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If you locked all of them up in a room and gave each of them a certain amount of money and they had to play each other for a month constantly, at the end of the month all but Artie would be broke. It's just that simple.

Beard
When you say this, do you mean playing even, or just matching up however they would?
 

fred bentivegna

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Even. of course

Even. of course

When you say this, do you mean playing even, or just matching up however they would?
Everybody in prime and playing even. Stamina would enter into it greatly. No enhancers allowed.

Beard

Matching up would be highway robbery for Artie.
 

wincardona

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If you locked all of them up in a room and gave each of them a certain amount of money and they had to play each other for a month constantly, at the end of the month all but Artie would be broke. It's just that simple.

Beard
Are we talking about who has the most stamina, or who was the best player? How does one interpret the word constantly?

Playing one pocket there is so much that defense will allow you to do, lets not get too much in love with defense playing one pocket against the best offensive players.:sorry You need to be an excellent offensive player with a great defensive moving game to beat the best offensive players. Not only that you must be able to consistently come with tough shots to beat players like Frost, Joyner, and Pagulion. Reyes is by far the most proficient offensive player of all time, at least of the players that i've watch play.

There has never been nor never will be a defensive player that can hold a player like Reyes.:frus Reyes has (had) the ability to come with the toughest shots at any time of the game with the appropriate stroke, using any english he felt necessary to get to the next shot. Plus he has an understanding of the game of pool that surpasses all other players. And if you want to get locked up in a room with him, i'm sure one can find other ways to beat themselves up.:lol

By the way Fred, Reyes did live in Chicago for a short time so you could possibly claim him as a Chicagoan.;)

Billy I.
 

wincardona

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Rating system

Rating system

How do you rate players?

What type of information do you think one would need to determine who the best players are?

To me the best players or the best player is the ones, or the one that has the best record against the best players of his time. Without this information one can only assume that a player is the best, or could of been the best. That's the way it's done in all other sports, tennis, boxing, golf, bowling, etc. With that understood, there's no mystery why I feel Reyes should be the undisputed choice for the best player of modern times. Lets go back 20 to 40 years ago when players like R. Allen, E. Kelly, Bugs, and E. Taylor reigned, it would be fair from a practical stand point to compare their greatness against Reyes but not a player like Artie. Maybe Artie was as good or better than the players mentioned, but since he didn't compete against them puts him at a lesser standard,:sorry We can go on and on about how the relatively untested players would of fared against the greatest of their time, but all we would be doing is spinning our wheels.:sorry Unfortunately for players like Artie an injustice may have been served but we can't go back and redo what has been done:( Just my two cents.

Billy I.
 

fred bentivegna

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Imho

Imho

How do you rate players?

What type of information do you think one would need to determine who the best players are?

To me the best players or the best player is the ones, or the one that has the best record against the best players of his time. Without this information one can only assume that a player is the best, or could of been the best. That's the way it's done in all other sports, tennis, boxing, golf, bowling, etc. With that understood, there's no mystery why I feel Reyes should be the undisputed choice for the best player of modern times. Lets go back 20 to 40 years ago when players like R. Allen, E. Kelly, Bugs, and E. Taylor reigned, it would be fair from a practical stand point to compare their greatness against Reyes but not a player like Artie. Maybe Artie was as good or better than the players mentioned, but since he didn't compete against them puts him at a lesser standard,:sorry We can go on and on about how the relatively untested players would of fared against the greatest of their time, but all we would be doing is spinning our wheels.:sorry Unfortunately for players like Artie an injustice may have been served but we can't go back and redo what has been done:( Just my two cents.

Billy I.
This is an opinion thread. I gave my opinion. You have yours. I have also been around and played all those folks too (save Frost). And I played Artie and Bugs (and Efren) a lot. What I said was just a gut opinion. My inbred "pool IQ" used to tell me that all those people were "better" players. I really cant point to anything that Artie did that much better than anybody else, and I know that they did do the main things, like shooting and banking, better than him. But every time I applied my pool IQ and bet against him I lost my cheese.

Beard
 

onepockethacker

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This is an opinion thread. I gave my opinion. You have yours. I have also been around and played all those folks too (save Frost). And I played Artie and Bugs (and Efren) a lot. What I said was just a gut opinion. My inbred "pool IQ" used to tell me that all those people were "better" players. I really cant point to anything that Artie did that much better than anybody else, and I know that they did do the main things, like shooting and banking, better than him. But every time I applied my pool IQ and bet against him I lost my cheese.

Beard
I personally feel the only way to compare different generation players in all sports is look at how dominate each athlete was in their time period. When Efren was at his peak i believe(could be wrong) that most people thought Cliff Joyner was the 2nd best player in the world at one pocket. I know at that time i know Efren was giving Cliff at least 8 to 7, if not 8 to 7 9 to 7. Thats pretty dominate if you ask me.
 

Deeman

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This is an opinion thread. I gave my opinion. You have yours. I have also been around and played all those folks too (save Frost). And I played Artie and Bugs (and Efren) a lot. What I said was just a gut opinion. My inbred "pool IQ" used to tell me that all those people were "better" players. I really cant point to anything that Artie did that much better than anybody else, and I know that they did do the main things, like shooting and banking, better than him. But every time I applied my pool IQ and bet against him I lost my cheese.

Beard
Freddie,

Would it be a mistake to suggest Artie played most of his life on his home court or home courts? I know of many very tough players who, locally, were almost impossible on the half dozen tables they played every week on.

DeeMan
 

Wayne

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I was reading alot of the past threads and there is alot of different opinions on how good Artie was. In your opinion wth them all in their prime(im assuming you saw all of them play in their prime but i could be wrong) How would you rate the following- Efren, Ronnnie Allen, Artie, Bugs, Parica, Cliff Joyner, Scott Frost
Artie himself explained it once. All of the mentioned players were better pool players than him because he wasn't a pool player he was a pool hustler. Efren is in a class by himself. Ronnie and Scott would be a pick em for next with Parica close behind and then Joyner and bringing up last would be Artie. Bugs I have no idea.

Pool hustling would have Artie first from everything that has been said. I don't think any of the others hustled much. Artie would have the most gamble of the group and Efren might have the least.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Everybody in prime If you locked all of them up in a room and they had to play each other constantly
Beard

in prime stroke
the most stamina

When the One Pocket Ghost was in his prime (1970's)...

If you locked the Ghost up for a week with Raquel Welch, Brigitte Bardot, Pam Grier, Ursula Andress, Bo Derek, Priscilla Presley, Lynda Carter and also a young teenage Jessica Alba and Ashley Judd..:eek:...

All of those hotties would have come out of that room - sore and pregnant...:heh

- Gh:Dst
 

onepockethacker

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When the One Pocket Ghost was in his prime (1970's)...

If you locked the Ghost up for a week with Raquel Welch, Brigitte Bardot, Pam Grier, Ursula Andress, Bo Derek, Priscilla Presley, Lynda Carter and also a young teenage Jessica Alba and Ashley Judd..:eek:...

All of those hotties would have come out of that room - sore and pregnant...:heh

- Gh:Dst
More like they would come out as lesbians LMFAO jk jk
 

Jimmy B

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Artie himself explained it once. All of the mentioned players were better pool players than him because he wasn't a pool player he was a pool hustler. Efren is in a class by himself. Ronnie and Scott would be a pick em for next with Parica close behind and then Joyner and bringing up last would be Artie. Bugs I have no idea.

Pool hustling would have Artie first from everything that has been said. I don't think any of the others hustled much. Artie would have the most gamble of the group and Efren might have the least.


Artie was in a class by himself as a hustler and a human being. He learned to be the best with one hand after he was bored with two. When he and RA were all set to play RA said he couldn't get a backer. What does that tell you?? Then after Artie got bored with pool he took over Vegas. They had to invent new laws to stymie him or he would have probably owned the whole place. Instead they threw him in jail. He is also a great humanitarian and has given away more than any pool player has ever made probably. Even the great Lassiter marveled at Artie and talked about the pressure he put on himself at having to win every single time. That is a sign of greatness. Another sign of greatness is solving problems. When he started drinking too much and got locked up a few times, he just quit. That takes character. So that makes AB the greatest pool player of all times as well as the greatest human which is so much more immportant. Agree???/
 

One Pocket Ghost

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More like they would come out as lesbians LMFAO jk jk

Nah, they'd come out bi-sexual...:heh...

I do like your sense of humor though hacker..but...you're not related to the SJDuck by any chance are you?...:D

- Ghost

PS, By the way hacker...I noticed your action offer in a thread last week, where you said you would be happy to come to any of us onepocket.orgers poolrooms to torture us like you did to Billy..:eek:...well, if you ever make it to Chicago, since I'm just a room player in my 60's who plays 10-8 under Billy - I'd take 10-7 and play you some...:)
 
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