Position of cb on the break!

[unoperro]

Perhaps Bob will chime in here but I believe he did a study of ball reaction on the break and found there are too many variables at work to replicate a full rack break consistently. To much random happenstance.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Unopero,
I really do not have variables, meaning yes there are variables in the stroke and english but I did that, and stated my findings, and my rack racks the same each time for the cloth has the imprint embedded, they rack frozen.
So I have done about as best as I can in not creating variables that can not be accounted for.

I did add a note to the break positions that require an above center break, that on a 9' table it may require more than a tip above center.
I feel this a true, so I included it into my summarization.

It will be interesting as you say to have Bob weigh in on this!
good suggestion!
Whitey

 

[darmoose]

Just from my own experience I must say the I would never attempt to break with a low hit on the CB. I may have hit center ball a few times, but usually favor slightly above center line.

So, Whitey, I have a few questions about your conclusions..........Do you believe that your CB has any draw english on it when making contact? For whatever RPMS you can achieve with your below center inside english hit, do you not think you can achieve the same RPMS with a center hit, even if it requires a bit more spinnage being put on the CB?

Seems to me for the lower hit on the CB to have any effect it would have to be hit a the same speed you would need to stop the CB on a regular shot of that same distance at the least, wouldn't you agree? As has been suggested, a measle CB would reveal the answer to this.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Darmoose,
I have stated many comments about this! I believe it to have only a very slightly draw effect upon the cb. It does naturally slow down the cb after impacting the stack which means you can use more force, which in turn by all accounts should open up the balls more. It does in my opinion reverse more off of the foot rail more than center ball, and this maybe due to a slightly more speed going into the foot rail. I believe it does come a little closer to the corner pocket than center ball, therefore it does need to reverse more.

I do not have a problem hitting the target, but below center since your hand can not be on the cloth but on the rail, you could get a masse effect. I do not. Of course if you go to far below center you will get a very noticeable masse' effect. I do not recommend that.

But center ball does require a good amount of reverse to freeze it upon the rail. Which for some might make it harder to hit the target, and explain why players are not freezing the ball against the rail. But IMO center reverse with the cb positioned close to the rail is an excellent break. And as I stated it does not leak the cb. High humidity, of which no one has commented on, then it might leak, I do not know.

I hope this answered your questions. Yes, center ball hit does an excellent job, if that is what you want to hear. I use backhand english and the distance to the rack is further so it very well could be easier on my table, I do not know!
thanks, Whitey

 

[mr3cushion]

It looks like everyone missed Larry's subtle hint, "stroke tempo and timing " about how to break with, LIE!

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

It looks like everyone missed Larry's subtle hint, "stroke tempo and timing " about how to break with, LIE!

I sure did not miss it, and in one of my videos I said it takes a fluid stroke. Which I mean your stroke tempo and timing. But yes, I have been doing nothing but working on my stroke for two months, and as I am understanding it, when I hit the stroke just right, it is oh so sweet, just so much action, and it comes to mind your so many instructions on stroke, and I say 'yes' there it is! That is what mr3cushion is lecturing about! Thanks!

I totally agree, it all starts with properly stroking the cb.
And this might explain why players are 'not' using the cb close to the rail break, and are not freezing the cb to the rail.
thanks, Whitey

 

[beatle]

iuy

 

[mr3cushion]

first off for people that made it thus far. one tip of english is different for some players. some use 1/2 tip as one tip. i use one full tip. as long as we all understand what a tip of english is then its fine.

second i do not know what a fluid stroke, or tempo, or timing means. as far as i know and am sure it is right, all that matters is the speed of the cue tip when it contacts the cueball and where and how it contacts it, .

whether your stoke is jerky , crooked, strange or whatever the cue ball doesnt know.
same as hitting a nail with a hammer. the nail doesnt know or care but only reacts to the speed and placement of the hit.

your timing or kind of stroke doesnt affect the shot. but may mentally help you if you think it does. that comment may be disparaging but true.

If I thought You had a clue, I'd explain how Wrong You are!

 

[Ratamon]

It looks like everyone missed Larry's subtle hint, "stroke tempo and timing " about how to break with, LIE!

There wasn’t much detail so that’s perhaps why. If you could elaborate, that would be great!

 

[mr3cushion]

There wasn’t much detail so that’s perhaps why. If you could elaborate, that would be great!

Rat; that's what a, 'subtle hint' is! Not much detail! Put the thinking cap on.

 

[Ratamon]

Ratamon, my statement is from recall and not from actually taking it to the table. When I stroke from the kitchen to the foot rail with center spin and with one tip below center they have very nearly the same results as to how much english each takes coming off of the rail. High takes way less. One tip of high is probably noticeably less also.

But, did you noticed that I stated; it takes more reverse english at center and especially above center to obtain what below reverse english accomplishes.
For, on the break when using below center you can hit the break a little harder so less reverse english is needed.

Regardless, I have stated the center reverse english is an excellent break with near the same results. So not to much to be controversial about, is there!

Just use the english that meets your expectations of a good break! Please share your break, if you have not, but sorry if you have, for I can not remember all the posts.
Whitey

Whitey I’m not sure what the explanation is for your experiments but my earlier statement can be explained by the angular momentum theorem as the CB acquires the most angular momentum when struck farthest from its centre.

Further, the energy created upon the tip-CB impact dissipates in line with the rolling friction which would be higher when the CB is struck below centre.

It would take a high-speed camera to prove this which I don’t have.

 

[beatle]

iuygf

 

[mr3cushion]

bill not for my sake but for the others please

1. explain how your stroke will affect the object balls after they are hit by the rolling cueball.

2. and how the stroke itself can affect the cue ball other than speed with the exact same contact point. assuming the cueball leaves the tip instantly or close to it after the cue tip contact.

Firstly, I'll let You explain why the parameters I offered have no effect on the effect on the CB or OB!

If none of what I offered helps, then why don't players just set down, line up the shot, pull the cue back and hit the CB,, without warm up strokes?

According to You and some others, all that matters is the, 'millisecond' (tip instantly or close to) the cue tip contacts the OB.

 

[sorackem]

That's why I long ago gave up giving the inspirational pep-talk to my cues on the way to the pool hall.
The f**kers are just lazy and arrogant and never appreciated the effort I put into building their confidence and getting them in the mood to play. All they cared about was that millisecond of contact and they were like 'eh - what do you expect when you set-up and stroke like shit'.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I set up my table to emulate a 9' table, and I think I came close. It is amazing how much less speed I put on the cb. This changes things, for I found that in the different break positions I was able to use more variety of english than on a 5x10.
Close to the rail break; I can also apply above center and it works, would not work on my table. I was able to get below center and center to work, but requires a precise hit for it does come much closer to the pocket.
1/2 diamond; I now can use below center, center, or above. Whereas on my table I recommended only above.
3/4 diamond; the same as 1/2 diamond.

So until I can get onto a 9' table, I am afraid I do not have much to add. Someone else will have to take over doing break positions and put up their results.
I will readjust the summarization, some what but can not finalize it tell I get onto a 9' table.

Well I gave it a good try, you got to give me that, I just never realized that there was that much difference between a 9' and and 10', and I think it is the more force that I can use on the 10'.
thanks, it has been a good thread, and a useful one once it is correctly pinned downed. Whitey

 

[catkins]

I somtimes use a low hit but that is only if I am masseing the ball and want a super aggresive hit on the second ball and the low excenuates the bend on the cue ball and slows it down to gurentee ball position.
I only use this agaist weaker shooters as it opens the pack in a preaty serious way so makes for a shooters game

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

click on box to go to full screen.

3/4 diamond break with using below center contacting the head ball to thick. In this case it pops out the corner ball, and as you see the cb nearly hits it as it passes by, and the cb comes close to the corner pocket.
Not much reversing effect coming off of the foot rail, this is probably due to heavy hit on the head ball and the speed of the cb in the first place.

But his hand is on the table as Robbins suggests, and as we can see he is 'wrong side' breaking. Also notice that opponent racks and no checking of rack, good ole days!

I have not had a chance to go to a 9' table and work on breaks. But if anyone else wants to post some breaks of pros, it would be very much appreciated. thanks, Whitey

 

[lll]

whitey
its hard to know for sure if jose used a low inside break
he always puts his cue there and then hits wherever he wants to on the cue ball
a technique not used by many

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

whitey
its hard to know for sure if jose used a low inside break
he always puts his cue there and then hits wherever he wants to on the cue ball
a technique not used by many

He is cuing to hit inside below center, but then the camera pans away to show the hit on the rack, so good insight on your part and knowledge of how he cues. For yes, he could of changed his cuing. Not sure it makes much difference for the speed of the break is not much! I need to get on a 9' to do a full study. Or, members can post more videos of breaks.

I noticed when I scaled down my table to simulate a 9' table break that the cb speed is greatly reduced which allows for more variety of breaks, meaning I could now use below, center, or above center. For instance on my table with greater cb speed with a 3/4 diamond break I could only use above center, and it was the most demanding of all the positions, very critical where you contact the head and 2nd ball.

Still, members have not spoke up about their knowledge of the effects of humidity!
I believe, and again this is speculation on my part; that with humidity this is the rule of thumb; use center or above center and move the cb further from the rail! Any comments welcomed!
thanks, Whitey