Position of cb on the break!

[darmoose]

i think your #1 is misleading in implying " inside below center" is the best way to break (since its # 1)
inside below center is not used by the majority of pros (jmho )
i think mentioning the need for inside english and why
and maybe the pros and cons of low vs center vs high inside would be ok
my observations during the seniors (not looking specifically because this thread didnt exist then)
was the better players used extreme inside and center or high
personally i think high inside is best because the cue ball "bends" toward the foot rail after hitting the pack and lets the inside take maximum effect and flatten out more to increase the the probability of the the cue ball land close to/on the side rail
(personally i use center inside because i dont get enough inside when i combine high and inside)
lastly
i could never really understand the use of low inside
i dont think people who use it are hitting the cue ball hard enough to have draw/low on the ball when it hits the stack
and when the low wears off and the cue ball rolls like in a drag shot the low inside converts to high insed
so why not use high inside from the start?
except you can stroke alittle firmer using a drag draw
jmho
icbw
thanks for going to the trouble of doing the summary whitey

I agree....and obviously true.........

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Larry,
thanks so much! I have been waiting for members to speak up! At seniors I believe there is humidity, and I wanted members who attended the event to speak up as to how it effected the break. There seems to be correlation between placing the cb and humidity, and this may carry further into what english is applied. There is a good portion of the country during certain times of the year that have higher humidity, so it is relevant, but as of yet we have no answers to what the adjustments are, how it effects the ball spread and the corner ball leak.

At Seniors of which I watched nearly all of the ppv matches, I did not see any aggressive breaks. It appeared most broke all from 1/2 diamond on up to 3/4 diamond, and I believe Efren was a little beyond that. They would only get the cb to 1-1/2 or maybe to the 2nd diamond line. So was the humidity ( I am assuming that there was humidity) creating this weak cautious breaking.

But, on each break 1-6, I used a variety of different english and high and low, and discovered a lot. But I assure you, that I represented the best english to use on each break to obtain the best results. In some of these breaks as the cb gets further from the rail it is the only english and above center that can be used, otherwise you are in deep trouble. As of yet, no member has offered up anything to the contrary.

On break #1 when using below center inside reverse, it then allows you to be more aggressive, thus giving you the maximum break. Below center carries more effect going into the foot rail and offers more reverse coming off the rail, so this allows the cb to have more force going into the stack for it slows down more coming off the rail and sticking to the side rail. Plus as demonstrated it contacts the foot rail at approx. 1/2 diamond so there is leeway to use below center. So I see no reason to use center or above center on this break, unless humidity plays a role. I have no humidity here so no effect, nor do I know the effect of humidity. I believe Floridians should know.

#1 Break; As you stated pros use center or high. It might be easier to hit the target, or they are not willing to use more force for fear of leaking the corner ball. So it is being cautious vs. getting the maximum break results they could of got. Conditions could be a factor.
It is like mr3cushion stated to me; "what ever happened to breaking just off the rail with inside below center and freezing the cb to the side rail". Hell I do not know, and the reason for this thread, why are they moving the cb further from the rail.

But I will put a note on break #1 about center and above center can be applied.
thanks for speaking up, I have not considered this thread really completed for members are not speaking up, as of yet. And yes, I feel it is important to point out that this break can also be stroked with center or above.
thanks, Whitey
Whitey

 

[cincy_kid]

I dont think I have ever used low inside spin on the break unless I am doing it subconsciously. I feel like when I am breaking from the right hand side I am aiming about 9:30 or 10:00....

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I dont think I have ever used low inside spin on the break unless I am doing it subconsciously. I feel like when I am breaking from the right hand side I am aiming about 9:30 or 10:00....

Yes, but you are breaking further off the rail, approx. 1/2 diamond, of which you stated on this thread, about half way between the rail and the 1st diamond head rail. Which is break # 3. in which I suggest using above center, so I do not know what your point is! Also pay attention to where the cb contacts the foot rail it is close to the corner pocket, so no way am I using below center on this break.

I do not think Jimmy B is paying attention to the whole thread in its entirety, for otherwise I do not believe with his knowledge he would give a thumbs up on a break 1/2 diamond from the rail. I only mentioned below center on a cb position close to the rail, as unopero and mr3c has also pointed out. I took their suggestion to heart and tried it and it really bits coming off the foot cushion and I did not notice the corner ball leaking out. I also had good clearance between the corner ball and cb, as I pointed out.

As I mentioned I tested each break using different types of english and a range of below to above center. The #1 break is different for it allows the cb to be stroked below, center, or above, and in this I agreed with Larry and added a note for this clarification. Good suggestion by Larry!

You guys that think it is wrong to put below center on the cb when it is close to the rail, then need to prove it, and state why it is wrong. Video tape it in humidity might be the ticket, for as of yet the humidity is an unknown factor as it applies to break #1. In humid conditions it is advised to move the cb away from the rail, in which you would not use below center anyway.

thanks for the comments,
I enjoy the discussion, and working through this to define the break positions. Whitey

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Well you guys are pushing me to find the answers to the break positions. Which is a good thing!

So far only the cb position to come into question is the close to the rail, as to whether using inside below center is ok, or is it bad info, if I can go that extreme in using the word "bad".

It is 33% humidity here today, which is high for our area. I did 20 breaks with the cb positioned 1-1/4 ball off the side rail using inside reverse english below center.
The first 10 breaks I was not breaking hard enough and got the cb to end up around the 1-3/4 diamond to 2 diamond line. On the 8th break the corner ball leaked out. I attribute this to contacting the head ball to thin, putting to much force upon the 2 ball.

The next 10 breaks as I warmed up, I used more force and got the cb to rest at 2-1/2 -3rd diamond line. I had no corner ball leaks whatsoever, matter of fact the corner never got closer than 1 diamond foot rail of the corner pocket. Had many highly acceptable breaks with balls on my side with cover.

So out of 20 breaks, I had one corner ball leak. As I stated in my original post on this break, the corner ball controls well. I find no ill effects of using inside below center that results in losing the corner ball, it actually stays 1 diamond away from the corner pocket. And as you see in the video the cb clears the corner ball by 1-1/2" - 2" as it passes by.

Some players, I guess, think you can get more outside english or inside english effect with center ball or high vs. below center. Just shoot from the kitchen with some force enough to carry to the foot rail using all three, and you will see that the below center outside english gets more off of the rail. Correct me I am wrong, it is ok, for this is just a discussion.
thanks, Whitey

 

[lll]

whitey
first of all unless you do 20 breaks with all 3 english the results dont mean anything regarding comparisons
second of all you are not trying to draw the ball off the stack ...correct??
i would be curious if you have a measles ball to see what spin there is when the cue ball gets to the stack
perhaps unoperro who advocated the the low inside could explain some of the subtlties using it
btw i think you mean inside english in your post above not outside
last i think its more about gaps that determine the corner ball leaking than spin on the cue ball

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Ok update: in all fairness I did 10 breaks using center ball inside reverse, and 10 breaks using above center inside reverse.

In using center inside reverse; it held the corner ball excellent - spread good - needed a good couple of tips of inside reverse to hole cb against the rail. Out of ten breaks no corner ball leak, or corner ball going closer to the corner pocket more than a diamond foot rail.
I notice it took more inside reverse to hold the cb against the side rail than in using below center inside reverse.
But the center inside reverse is an excellent break, and nearly identical results as below center. Just the inside below center you can use more force, but it is comparable.

Above center: I would only recommend one tip above center. I found that it takes a good two tips of inside reverse to get the cb to somewhat kill off of the foot rail. Going more than one tip above center makes the cb curve more into the head rail because it is rotating on a much different axis, so not recommend more than one tip above center. Corner ball held well.

Larry, yes, not draw just below center. Gaps, according to some can create the corner ball to leak. I tried to give myself really bad racks of all types and did not really notice much difference. But, I would prefer a tighter rack, which my racks in these videos are pretty tight.
Whitey

 

[mr3cushion]

IMHO, just as in Any shot, there is, as usual, 'Timing, tempo, speed and stroke' in breaking' in 9 ball as in 1P, I believe a certain stroke should be applied. It always comes down to basics/fundamentals.

 

[beatle]

jhg

 

[lll]

mr3cushion and I had a discussion regarding the low inside break
his insights are genius regarding "stroke tempo and timing "

 

[cincy_kid]

I never said any of it is wrong Whitey, I just said I personally have never used it. That doesn't mean much coming from a hack who can't beat anyone!

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I never said any of it is wrong Whitey, I just said I personally have never used it. That doesn't mean much coming from a hack who can't beat anyone!

For you, you probably should not use it. For it is only used when the cb is close to the rail. And beings you break from the 'wrong' side, then bridging to put below center inside reverse could give you a slight masse' effect. When I was breaking from the wrong side, I had to be aware of this.
But, we are good, for I never took it as you saying it was wrong, I only took it as it did not apply to you for you break further from the rail, in which you can not use below center, for the chances of scratching would go way up.

It is interesting that Robbins suggests having your hand on the bed of the table when breaking. This is not possible when breaking with the cb close to the rail from either side. So in essence he is saying do not use a break close to the rail.
thanks, Whitey

 

[NH Steve]

If someone stat oriented had the patience for it, it could be interesting to map/plot break results starting with the cue ball in different positions. Of course, you would not necessarily have control over various conditions, english and contact variables.

My impression in general is that breaking to the side is more aggressive (including better chance of making a ball in your own pocket) -- offering up more spread of balls on your side -- but also a bit more risky. Breaking further in weakens your results but tends to be safer (in particular, less risk of selling out the corner ball).

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

on a 5 by 10 you have much more room and need to hit the break harder to get the cue ball higher, so its an entirely different set of procedures. i have more games on 5 by 10 than on 9's in my life.
most players break too softly as they are scared of selling out, and they should be as they cant gauge the rack or the table and are playing in the dark.

each table is different and really you should start with the cue ball very close to the rail first. as that will give you the best break if it works.

beatle, you are giving much insight. Wow, another member that has spent plenty of time on a 5 x 10, very rare indeed. I always cherished what Wimpy said; "if you want to get good at pool, play on a 5 x 10". Yes, a 5 x 10 can not give a true evaluation of the break on a 9' table, and yes there is more room to work with.

For instance, 3/4 diamond break: I state to use above center inside reverse, which to me, means one tip above center. This break still comes close to the corner pocket on my table. So on a 9' table it might need much more high to get forward motion on the cb to catch the foot rail without scratching.

So in that respect I can only do so much.
thanks again, Whitey

 

[Ratamon]

Larry,
thanks so much! I have been waiting for members to speak up! At seniors I believe there is humidity, and I wanted members who attended the event to speak up as to how it effected the break. There seems to be correlation between placing the cb and humidity, and this may carry further into what english is applied. There is a good portion of the country during certain times of the year that have higher humidity, so it is relevant, but as of yet we have no answers to what the adjustments are, how it effects the ball spread and the corner ball leak.

At Seniors of which I watched nearly all of the ppv matches, I did not see any aggressive breaks. It appeared most broke all from 1/2 diamond on up to 3/4 diamond, and I believe Efren was a little beyond that. They would only get the cb to 1-1/2 or maybe to the 2nd diamond line. So was the humidity ( I am assuming that there was humidity) creating this weak cautious breaking.

But, on each break 1-6, I used a variety of different english and high and low, and discovered a lot. But I assure you, that I represented the best english to use on each break to obtain the best results. In some of these breaks as the cb gets further from the rail it is the only english and above center that can be used, otherwise you are in deep trouble. As of yet, no member has offered up anything to the contrary.

On break #1 when using below center inside reverse, it then allows you to be more aggressive, thus giving you the maximum break. Below center carries more effect going into the foot rail and offers more reverse coming off the rail, so this allows the cb to have more force going into the stack for it slows down more coming off the rail and sticking to the side rail. Plus as demonstrated it contacts the foot rail at approx. 1/2 diamond so there is leeway to use below center. So I see no reason to use center or above center on this break, unless humidity plays a role. I have no humidity here so no effect, nor do I know the effect of humidity. I believe Floridians should know.

#1 Break; As you stated pros use center or high. It might be easier to hit the target, or they are not willing to use more force for fear of leaking the corner ball. So it is being cautious vs. getting the maximum break results they could of got. Conditions could be a factor.
It is like mr3cushion stated to me; "what ever happened to breaking just off the rail with inside below center and freezing the cb to the side rail". Hell I do not know, and the reason for this thread, why are they moving the cb further from the rail.

But I will put a note on break #1 about center and above center can be applied.
thanks for speaking up, I have not considered this thread really completed for members are not speaking up, as of yet. And yes, I feel it is important to point out that this break can also be stroked with center or above.
thanks, Whitey
Whitey

Whitey you will not hit the CB so hard as for the draw to take effect over such a long distance. This is just an illusion. The scratch is looming large if you do.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Whitey you will not hit the CB so hard as for the draw to take effect over such a long distance. This is just an illusion. The scratch is looming large if you do.

Ratamon, thank you for participating. I believe I have covered this before. But I do not put draw on the cb for that would either scratch or contact the side rail. I use a tip below center which creates more bit of reverse english when coming off the foot rail vs. center or above. It contacts the foot rail at 1/2 diamond and not near the corner pocket.

As you break further from the side rail then the cb gets closer to scratching.

When using below center you stroke the cb with more force and thus the below center does carry to the foot rail. The one and only advantage of using below center is you can use more force going into the stack, thus in theory opening up more balls. Using center inside english you can nearly obtain the same results. We are talking about the #1 break close to the rail.

I hope this is helpful! thanks, Whitey

 

[Ratamon]

You guys that think it is wrong to put below center on the cb when it is close to the rail, then need to prove it, and state why it is wrong.

When close to the rail you will be cueing at 30 degrees or more to the surface which means a substantial masse effect on the CB. Why adding this complexity to the break? You will likely miss the head ball now and again or overcompensate and hit it too thick.

Yes, the Coriolis force will take effect in the other two scenarios too (centre inside and high inside) but the effect would be less prominent and more predictable as the axis of the rotating ball will be perpendicular to the surface of the table.

I’m sure Bob Jewett will be able to explain the subtleties here as my high school days were what feels like another lifetime ago.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

If someone stat oriented had the patience for it, it could be interesting to map/plot break results starting with the cue ball in different positions. Of course, you would not necessarily have control over various conditions, english and contact variables.

My impression in general is that breaking to the side is more aggressive (including better chance of making a ball in your own pocket) -- offering up more spread of balls on your side -- but also a bit more risky. Breaking further in weakens your results but tends to be safer (in particular, less risk of selling out the

Steve, I had a long reply, book reply, LOL! I want to par it down to say; "that I did this"! On various break position in my posts I noted what can happen if the head ball is hit to thick or to thin. I also noted what english to use or not to use. I can not duplicate high humidity, or a poorly rack of balls. My racks are frozen.
I then made a summarization so new players do not have to wade through the whole thread. In it is what I consider the best english to use for each break, and in some cases more info. As of yet non of these have been disputed.
I just now upgraded my summarization on break positions that require above center with a note; on above center it may require more than a tip of above on a 9' table. This is because as beatle pointed out there is more room to play with on a 5 x 10.

I could of made videos of what happens when a certain break using improper english or contacts the head ball to thick or to thin, but that would add 3x the amount of time put into this, and still it is not on a 9' or in humid conditions. But, I did note it if I felt it was warranted.
thanks, Whitey

 

[Ratamon]

Ratamon, thank you for participating. I believe I have covered this before. But I do not put draw on the cb for that would either scratch or contact the side rail. I use a tip below center which creates more bit of reverse english when coming off the foot rail vs. center or above. It contacts the foot rail at 1/2 diamond and not near the corner pocket.

As you break further from the side rail then the cb gets closer to scratching.

When using below center you stroke the cb with more force and thus the below center does carry to the foot rail. The one and only advantage of using below center is you can use more force going into the stack, thus in theory opening up more balls. Using center inside english you can nearly obtain the same results. We are talking about the #1 break close to the rail.

I hope this is helpful! thanks, Whitey

The most reverse is achieved at the centre level of the CB as it’s where you can hit the CB farthest from the centre but still parallel to the surface to maximise effect

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

The most reverse is achieved at the centre level of the CB as it’s where you can hit the CB farthest from the centre but still parallel to the surface to maximise effect

Ratamon, my statement is from recall and not from actually taking it to the table. When I stroke from the kitchen to the foot rail with center spin and with one tip below center they have very nearly the same results as to how much english each takes coming off of the rail. High takes way less. One tip of high is probably noticeably less also.

But, did you noticed that I stated; it takes more reverse english at center and especially above center to obtain what below reverse english accomplishes.
For, on the break when using below center you can hit the break a little harder so less reverse english is needed.

Regardless, I have stated the center reverse english is an excellent break with near the same results. So not to much to be controversial about, is there!

Just use the english that meets your expectations of a good break! Please share your break, if you have not, but sorry if you have, for I can not remember all the posts.
Whitey