Position of cb on the break!

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I have noticed that quite a few players, remarkable Efren start with the cb further from the rail when breaking. In this last Seniors he struggled coming oh so ever close to the end ball, and even scratched a few times off of it.

I like having the cb close to the side rail and then put maximum inside english to try and freeze the cb to the side rail. Is there some kind of advantage to breaking with the cb further from the rail?
thanks, Whitey

 

[lll]

You tend not to scratch or have the corner ball leak out as much
Is how i understand it
The downside is the balls don’t spread as much compared to coming from closer to the side rail
Jmho

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

You tend not to scratch or have the corner ball leak out as much
Is how i understand it
The downside is the balls don’t spread as much compared to coming from closer to the side rail
Jmho

Larry, I position the cb anywhere from 1 ball off the rail to nearly 2 balls off the rail, an I like hitting about 15-20% of the head ball. This gives me a slight hit on 2nd ball, propelling the cb to the foot rail.

Whereas, with the cb starting further from the rail, it seems that I would then need a thinner hit on the head ball which would give me a thicker hit on the 2nd ball, which would be undesirable for it sends the cb more towards the pocket. So I would need a thinner hit on the head ball and a corresponding thinner hit on the 2nd ball, in which as you stated; "would not open up the balls as much". Or, am I thinking wrong?

But you are a member of poolaction tv. So you can review Efren's break at Seniors, and I do not see the advantage. He has to use above center to get follow to take over to get the cb to the foot rail, so it does not scratch, and then he barely clears the corner ball. A little puzzling for me, why you would break that far off the side rail. So that is the question.
thanks, Whitey

 

[cincy_kid]

I have noticed that quite a few players, remarkable Efren start with the cb further from the rail when breaking. In this last Seniors he struggled coming oh so ever close to the end ball, and even scratched a few times off of it.

I like having the cb close to the side rail and then put maximum inside english to try and freeze the cb to the side rail. Is there some kind of advantage to breaking with the cb further from the rail?
thanks, Whitey

I think it helps prevent the corner ball from leaking as much. When you have the CB closer to the rail, you are going into the stack fuller, therefore more friction / more spread. When you move the CB closer to the middle and break, you are skimming the balls more which creates less friction and less spread. That's my understanding on it any ways.

 

[lll]

I think it helps prevent the corner ball from leaking as much. When you have the CB closer to the rail, you are going into the stack fuller, therefore more friction / more spread. When you move the CB closer to the middle and break, you are skimming the balls more which creates less friction and less spread. That's my understanding on it any ways.

i agree cincy

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

But, in breaking from 1 ball off the rail to no move than two, and when I use a lot inside reverse hitting the head ball about 15%, my cb goes easily towards the foot rail, and holding the corner ball. Whereas, if I use straight center ball without inside english and hitting the head ball the same, then the cb rebounds off the rack on more angle towards the corner pocket. So my findings are; inside reverse english helps.

I have noticed that difference. I say I easily hit the foot rail, but then again I have more area to work with on a 5 x 10, more room for forgiveness.

It seems to me that moving the cb further from the rail makes hitting the head more precisely is critical. For when using inside reverse english it would be easy to miss the head ball completely and then only hit the 2nd ball.

There was a guy at Seniors breaking like that, hitting the 2nd ball only. He was pretty successful at it.
Whitey

 

[unoperro]

Whitey if you are breaking form the right side- you are using bottom left ?

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Whitey if you are breaking form the right side- you are using bottom left ?

Not the bottom, but yes it would left. I generally use center left, but lately as another thread was up on this, I experimented with above center left and it worked well.
But I will try bottom left. Always open to try something.
Whitey

 

[cincy_kid]

But, in breaking from 1 ball off the rail to no move than two, and when I use a lot inside reverse hitting the head ball about 15%, my cb goes easily towards the foot rail, and holding the corner ball. Whereas, if I use straight center ball without inside english and hitting the head ball the same, then the cb rebounds off the rack on more angle towards the corner pocket. So my findings are; inside reverse english helps.

I have noticed that difference. I say I easily hit the foot rail, but then again I have more area to work with on a 5 x 10, more room for forgiveness.

It seems to me that moving the cb further from the rail makes hitting the head more precisely is critical. For when using inside reverse english it would be easy to miss the head ball completely and then only hit the 2nd ball.

There was a guy at Seniors breaking like that, hitting the 2nd ball only. He was pretty successful at it.
Whitey

I still use max inside english or at least a good bit of it, to also hit the foot rail and bounce up trying to get the CB around 2-2.5 diamonds up on the side rail if I can. I just move the CB over closer to the middle is all.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Whitey if you are breaking form the right side- you are using bottom left ?

Unopero,
I worked on using below center inside reverse, and what I like about it; is that you can use more force because when you use below center then the cb reverses more when coming off of the foot rail, and it is easier to freeze the cb to the side rail. I also found that with a balls width from the side rail or two balls width, I scored the corner ball an unusual amount of times. Very nice when playing a standard break w/ opponent racking.
But the closer the cb is to the rail the more you have to come down on the cb, so it can give the cb a slight masse effect. But as with any break it takes practice to hit it exactly like you want.

I notice as I moved the cb further from the rail, like putting 3 balls to edge of cb or 4 balls to edge of cb, then the corner ball was leaking out more. So not a fan of being further off the rail.

thanks, I like it at about a ball and a half off the rail.
Whitey

 

[gulfportdoc]

I think it helps prevent the corner ball from leaking as much. When you have the CB closer to the rail, you are going into the stack fuller, therefore more friction / more spread. When you move the CB closer to the middle and break, you are skimming the balls more which creates less friction and less spread. That's my understanding on it any ways.

I believe that's true. It seems to me that the drier the conditions, the further away from the side rail prevents leakage. I never have to worry about that here in Mississippi, because it's always humid. But in real dry conditions I usually break from 1/2 the way between the rail and head spot. If it still leaks, then I try hitting the 2nd/3rd pocket in the rack, or even the 3rd/4th. I recall Eddie Robin discussing the reason for various break positions, but I'm too lazy to look it up in his 1P book.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Larry sent me excerpts from Robbins book. He explained if you have the cb close to the rail then the inside reverse will give it a masse' effect with the elevated cue. It does impact the rack more. He felt it is better to place the cb so you can get your full hand on the table. He suggests being further away from the rail if the corner ball is leaking out. In humid conditions then further from the rail is supported by Ed Kelly and Grady. This may explain cb placement at Seniors.

I tried this morning with the cb 1 diamond off the side rail, with no luck. Skimming the head ball to skim the 2nd ball just sent the cb to close to the corner pocket scratch. Not sure how you guys are doing it, and it seems Robbins has it 1 diamond out.
Whitey

 

[cincy_kid]

I believe that's true. It seems to me that the drier the conditions, the further away from the side rail prevents leakage. I never have to worry about that here in Mississippi, because it's always humid. But in real dry conditions I usually break from 1/2 the way between the rail and head spot. If it still leaks, then I try hitting the 2nd/3rd pocket in the rack, or even the 3rd/4th. I recall Eddie Robin discussing the reason for various break positions, but I'm too lazy to look it up in his 1P book.

That's about where I break from as well.

 

[cincy_kid]

Larry sent me excerpts from Robbins book. He explained if you have the cb close to the rail then the inside reverse will give it a masse' effect with the elevated cue. It does impact the rack more. He felt it is better to place the cb so you can get your full hand on the table. He suggests being further away from the rail if the corner ball is leaking out. In humid conditions then further from the rail is supported by Ed Kelly and Grady. This may explain cb placement at Seniors.

I tried this morning with the cb 1 diamond off the side rail, with no luck. Skimming the head ball to skim the 2nd ball just sent the cb to close to the corner pocket scratch. Not sure how you guys are doing it, and it seems Robbins has it 1 diamond out.
Whitey

try moving it over further halfway between head spot and rail, aim to split 1st and 2nd ball, inside english.

 

[cincy_kid]

after further review, I guess I don't come that far over...It looks like I normally break between the rail and the first diamond in looking at a couple of videos.

Here is an example of one of my breaks:

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Cincy Kid,
Thanks for the video. I can break from that spot, which looks close to 1/2 diamond. I went forward to see Morra's break and he broke identical to Heinrich but the other side. They both hit inside reverse w/ either center or just above center. Neither one really got a good break and they came very close to the corner ball.

Remember Darmoose's thread on 'why break to the wrong pocket'! Well Morra a lefty broke to the wrong pocket, and Heinrich a righty broke to the wrong pocket. Efren broke to the wrong pocket against James Davis, Jr. who I believe is a lefty, putting him on the wrong pocket. I am lefty and break to the wrong pocket, and that puts my righty opponent on the wrong pocket, so who do you think is more use to it!
But,
I prefer being closer to the rail, about half that much when breaking. I am liking using Unopero below center inside reverse, because I can break harder for the below center makes the reverse grab more on the foot rail. It is now a work in progress. If I get some kind of break working pretty consistent, then I will video it.
Robbins is breaking at a diamond off the side rail, splitting the 1st and 2nd ball, in one of his examples, I can not do that break!
Whitey

 

[darmoose]

Cincy Kid,
Thanks for the video. I can break from that spot, which looks close to 1/2 diamond. I went forward to see Morra's break and he broke identical to Heinrich but the other side. They both hit inside reverse w/ either center or just above center. Neither one really got a good break and they came very close to the corner ball.

Remember Darmoose's thread on 'why break to the wrong pocket'! Well Morra a lefty broke to the wrong pocket, and Heinrich a righty broke to the wrong pocket. Efren broke to the wrong pocket against James Davis, Jr. who I believe is a lefty, putting him on the wrong pocket. I am lefty and break to the wrong pocket, and that puts my righty opponent on the wrong pocket, so who do you think is more use to it!
But,
I prefer being closer to the rail, about half that much when breaking. I am liking using Unopero below center inside reverse, because I can break harder for the below center makes the reverse grab more on the foot rail. It is now a work in progress. If I get some kind of break working pretty consistent, then I will video it.
Robbins is breaking at a diamond off the side rail, splitting the 1st and 2nd ball, in one of his examples, I can not do that break!
Whitey

........and do you break to the wrong pocket against a lefty?......giving him the right pocket........

 

[cincy_kid]

I always break from the right, even if it's wrong. I do it because I am used to it more. I need to practice breaking to the other side I know.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

........and do you break to the wrong pocket against a lefty?......giving him the right pocket........

I knew my post would get your attention. LOL! Never played a lefty. Really never got to play much OP in So. Cal, I mean did if someone asked.
But if you have been following this thread, do you have any comment about breaking further from the rail. It is suppose to keep the corner ball in check.
thanks, Whitey

 

[lll]

in the book robbins does not endorse that position as "the best place."
he mentions only in wet conditions/minimize corner ball sell out/and when there is a bad rack to use it/try it