Bad move

[vapros]

I watched a video recently in which Corey Deuel faced a doubtful shot. A ball near his cue ball was in the way of his shot, or it wasn't (pick one). He called for Ken Shuman to come and clean the cue ball, and after a bit of negotiation Ken put down his marker, picked up Jojo and wiped it clean and replaced it. Corey then took the shot and made the ball. I believe Justin Hall was the bereaved.

Corey did wrong to make the request and to put Ken on the spot. Ken did wrong to let him get away with it. Suppose Justin had disputed the shot - either before or after. Would Ken then be responsible to make a ruling on it? What's the rule? The situation should never have developed as it did. But it did.

 

[Tobermory]

Awkward situation, to say the least. But if Corey had noticed a gob of something or a hair on the cue ball (and don't we have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he saw something, and that Ken also saw it when called to the table?), what was he supposed to do after noticing it? Seems legit to ask for a cleaning. At that point, we have to expect Ken to perform as a professional and expert ref and mark the ball and return it to the same spot so that Corey would have the same shot he had before the cleaning. Since the cleaning was done by the ref, there is no ruling to be made as the ref did what he was supposed to do. There is no reason to believe from what you have described that Corey did not have a shot before the cleaning but had one after the cleaning.

 

[lll]

Awkward situation, to say the least. But if Corey had noticed a gob of something or a hair on the cue ball (and don't we have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he saw something, and that Ken also saw it when called to the table?), what was he supposed to do after noticing it? Seems legit to ask for a cleaning. At that point, we have to expect Ken to perform as a professional and expert ref and mark the ball and return it to the same spot so that Corey would have the same shot he had before the cleaning. Since the cleaning was done by the ref, there is no ruling to be made as the ref did what he was supposed to do. There is no reason to believe from what you have described that Corey did not have a shot before the cleaning but had one after the cleaning.

All you say is true but it could be a move hoping for a millimeter or 2 difference to see the ball
and i wouldnt put it past corey to make a move
jmho

 

[lll]

apparently in snooker if you dont hit the red the cue ball can be replaced and you have to shoot again
this was an interesting exchange during the ronnie osulliva judd trump 2022 world championship
it shows the ref can misplace the cue ball

 

[darmoose]

All you say is true but it could be a move hoping for a millimeter or 2 difference to see the ball
and i wouldnt put it past corey to make a move
jmho

I don't think it is fair to speculate on this. It looks like from what we know that everyone involved did exactly what they were entitled to do and what they needed to do. Should Cory have ignored whatever was on the CB, should Ken also have ignored it?

 

[lll]

I don't think it is fair to speculate on this. It looks like from what we know that everyone involved did exactly what they were entitled to do and what they needed to do. Should Cory have ignored whatever was on the CB, should Ken also have ignored it?

i dont know the rule but can ken (the ref) refuse to clean the ball if he doesnt see anything on it?

 

[BRLongArm]

The player can ask for the ball to be cleaned at any time. The referee obliged. Was it a move? No, it was within the rules. It is up to the referee to replace it where it was. Corey was within the rules. You may have an issue with the rules, but Corey did nothing illegal or wrong.

 

[unoperro]

apparently in snooker if you dont hit the red the cue ball can be replaced and you have to shoot again
this was an interesting exchange during the ronnie osulliva judd trump 2022 world championship
it shows the ref can misplace the cue ball

Ronnie is a absolute stickler for the rules and isn't happy with some of the referees. He had so little faith in this particular referee that he asked Judd to confirm the cueball position . Snooker also uses instant replay/ freeze frame with a spotter to aid the referee in replacing the balls. Perhaps Ronnie didn't like the spotter either!

 

[bobt64]

apparently in snooker if you dont hit the red the cue ball can be replaced and you have to shoot again
this was an interesting exchange during the ronnie osulliva judd trump 2022 world championship
it shows the ref can misplace the cue ball

Doesn't just apply to the reds, called a foul and a miss. Does get a bit more complicated after multiple attempts. Without the setup at major tournaments very hard to do in a typical game.

 

[squeezeplay]

I think it's a bad rule that can (and should) be exploited by crafty players. In golf if you get dirt or mud on your ball, you cannot remedy that until you get to the green. Pool is no different. Play it as it lies. Clean it between games or when you have ball in hand. When did this clean the ball stuff start anyway?

 

[cincy_kid]

I think it's a bad rule that can (and should) be exploited by crafty players. In golf if you get dirt or mud on your ball, you cannot remedy that until you get to the green. Pool is no different. Play it as it lies. Clean it between games or when you have ball in hand. When did this clean the ball stuff start anyway?

Not sure when they started doing it and personally I am not a big fan of the rule either. Since this is a game of millimeters, even if it's slightly placed wrong, it could change the game completely. I would just clean it between games or when you have BIH if needed as you mentioned. Just my 2 cents...

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

1.8 Restoring a Position

When necessary for balls to be restored or cleaned, the referee will restore disturbed balls to
their original positions to the best of his ability. The players must accept the referee’s
judgment as to placement.
___________
This is the WPA rule. A poor rule will be abused by players, and it has been happening for years. But notice there is no mentioning of a player's request to clean the balls. As with other rules of WPA you might have to do a search to find the complete rule. So, if this is the complete rule then the referee is under no obligation to clean the ball.

But, were they playing by WPA rules? Currently Ken Shuman is playing by WPA rules, I think. But I do not know if he was during this cleaning ball scenario.

The WPA rule could be easily adjusted to solve the problem, something like this off the top of my head.

1.8 Restoring a Position
When necessary for balls to be restored or cleaned, the referee will restore disturbed balls to
their original positions to the best of his ability. The players must accept the referee’s judgment as to placement.
With a request to clean the cue ball, then the referee must determine if there is an 'obvious' clear path to the intended object ball, and if not, then the request to clean the cue ball is denied.

I wrote a cleaning a ball rule quite a few years ago to solve the abuse. I never offered it up. This simple adjustment could be offered up, but as Mike Shamos related to me; "those in power over rules will hardly ever or never relinquish that to an outside source".

This is the BCAPL/CSI ruling, it is found under the referee section.

10-7 Suitability of Equipment Referees will make their best effort to ensure that the tournament equipment is suitable for play and meets CSI requirements. During play, players may ask a referee to clean one or more balls, remove excess powder from the table bed or rails, or assist in any other way to keep the equipment playable.

Ken Shuman was a technical advisor for the bcapl rule committee, so he knows the above rule very well.
Whitey

 

[sneakynito]

Corey's just too smart.
I remember this match. It was funny. Justin was NOT pleased.
And then after inspecting the the shot after the ref restored the ball, Corey asked if he could clean it again.

 

[Jimmy B]

And it became like a running joke for a while after that. Some player would be just barely unable to hit a ball like he wanted and he would yell out- 'Hey, I need a ball cleaning!',, and the audience would laugh.. I was watching the one pocket tournament. A player told his opponent that he needed to get something off the cue ball. His opponent said to just go ahead and clean it and put it back, because it was not close to another ball and he obviously trusted him to do it. The incoming shooter marks with a piece of chalk and then as he picks up jojo, he moves the chalk. So he moves the chalk back to approximately where it was with one hand while he's holding the cue ball in the other hand. I forgot the combatants, but I thought that was sort of amusing.....

 

[cincy_kid]

there's your new million dollar invention....

It's an apparatus that you place over the CB and on to the cloth. You press a button and the vacuum turns on and it sucks the CB up with force so its spinning around and being cleaned by the polishing cloths lining the inside of the device. Then, it gently comes to rest back on the table in the exact same spot (because you haven't moved your hand), lift up and walla, clean CB and problem solved!

 

[sneakynito]

In snooker they use these ball markers for cleaning the ball. Put your finger on top of the ball and slide the marker under. Then you can just replace the ball back on the marker. I always that they'd be a good idea for refs to have in pool, too.

 

[cincy_kid]

In snooker they use these ball markers for cleaning the ball. Put your finger on top of the ball and slide the marker under. Then you can just replace the ball back on the marker. I always that they'd be a good idea for refs to have in pool, too.

That's what they use in pool too when I have seen it done. Maybe not see thru but very similar design. The flaw is you still have to pick up the ball...

 

[vapros]

With a request to clean the cue ball, then the referee must determine if there is an 'obvious' clear path to the intended object ball, and if not, then the request to clean the cue ball is denied.

Whitey, rather than than a clear path to the object ball, it should have been clear path to the shot. - not quite the same thing. Corey needed to cut the object ball a bit.

 

[unoperro]

Cory was taking a chance that the new position would be better rather then worse. I watched Ken spotting balls in a dcc match and he moved 2 other balls while spotting on the foot string.

 

[cincy_kid]

even if the ref believes there's no clear path to the shot, the player may have better eyes

I still think no one should never touch the CB once the game begins unless you have Ball In Hand.