Efren Reyes vs. Nick Varner 1999 D.C.C. #2

[tonygreen]

slide off the 12 with a little left hand and lay by the 13 ...

 

[vapros]

Larry, that's just about what I would try to do, also, but I would be happy just to get the cb behind the 4 and leave it there. The rest of your route looks pretty ambitious and optimistic to me.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Shoot the three, it looks like the perfect angle to get behind the two even if you miss it...

I agree Bille,

The only easy (sure) out, is the very passive safe lag, side rail,behind the 13, probably giving up a ball. However, with no balls near your hole, your opponent will likely put you in worse trouble, then you were allready in.

All other shots, are at best, very risky. I would, (as I'm sure Efren would) have considerable confidence, in cutting the 3 ball "toward" my pocket, at whatever angle is necessary to drop to the side rail, and with pocket speed, the cue ball will come to rest, on or near the bottom rail behind the 13. There is the possibilty of scratching off the 4 ball, if you mis-judge the angle coming of the 3 ball...But, I think a B player, or above should be able to execute this safety, most of the time... while getting the 3 ball, at least very near their hole.

You have to learn to become comfortable with shots similar to this, as the risk/reward factor, is definately in your favor. You can't have a gimmie every shot, in one pocket...

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

There is the possibilty of scratching off the duece, if you mis-judge the angle coming of the 3 ball.

Sometimes I wonder why I waste my time. I know it's early out in AZ and that gives you no excuse for being a moron, you aren't drunk (yet), you aren't tired, you shouldn't be hungry. That only leaves one reason why you would call the 4 ball the 2 ball, you are a F@@king idiot!!! I've posted the layout numbers twice and now three times for people like you.

 

[NH Steve]

Two good things to do here...

One choice is a potentially very effective and powerful power shot, but there's a risk involved: Shoot the ball 4ball 2 rails into the 13 ball with speed, medium-hard, and draw-stiff the cueball sideways into the 12 balls thus sending a slew of balls towards your pocket - the downside gamble/risk to the shot is that you could catch a kiss from the 4 or 13 balls - probably worth the gamble though because you're going to get a lot of positive action from this shot...

The other, more conservative choice, is to shoot the 3ball...shooting to make the 3ball if that angle naturally sends the cueball behind the 4ball and down to the bottom rail and behind the 13ball...if you don't have that angle, then you play the cueball thinner off the 3ball, or fuller, shooting th 3ball into the 5-2 combination with a soft follow stroke - choosing whichever shot/angle will allow you to get the cueball between the 4 and the long rail, ending up down on the bottom rail and behind the 13ball.

- Ghost

This one here is what came to me -- playing the CUE BALL, and probably by hitting the 3 thicker rather than thinner because I have better control of the CUE BALL that way; not really playing the 3 (but don't mind if it happens to fall in )

Did I mention I was playing the cue ball not so much the 3?

 

[SJDinPHX]

This one here is what came to me -- playing the CUE BALL, and probably by hitting the 3 thicker rather than thinner because I have better control of the CUE BALL that way; not really playing the 3 (but don't mind if it happens to fall in )

Did I mention I was playing the cue ball not so much the 3?

I guess, (except for my calling the 4 ball the duece) this was the Ghost;s "conservative" choice...I hadn't noticed...But, as I went on to explain, I don't think ANY other option (other than a safe lag) offers ANY chance of success, without getting VERY lucky.

PS...RBL...Doorknob...If you would, please number the balls, (with color coded lines and arrows please) on your ORIGINAL post, as that is the only one I ever look at. I rarely ever even look at the other posts, as I already know what I'M going to shoot...In reading back over the thread, I see Mr Stroud made the same error...You didn't scream at him, or call him a f@@king idiot...you muddereffing moron...

 

[SJDinPHX]

Let me further clarify my position...If I were to consider a second choice, it would be Frank's shot...very little risk, except for trusting the table roll, however, it is almost as passive as lagging safe...you won't be shooting hard enough to move any balls away, and you are setting yourself up for a probable worse trap. If the 3 weren't there, that would be almost the only option.

As for the Ghost's first agressive choice, I think, (giving you are shooting, almost off the rail) that the chances of success, look very minimal...You have to shoot pretty hard on that shot, to move the balls away from his pocket, and towards yours...Yes, if you get really lucky, you will look like a hero...But I think you may also also, more often then not, give the game away... Ghosty, I really can't see you shooting that shot, for all the cheese...Its too early in the game for a "Hail Mary"..JMHO...:sorry

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

As for the Ghost's first agressive choice, I think, (giving you are shooting, almost off the rail) that the chances of success, look very minimal...You have to shoot pretty hard on that shot, to move the balls away from his pocket, and towards yours...Yes, if you get really lucky, you will look like a hero...But I think you may also also, more often then not, give the game away... Ghosty, I really can't see you shooting that shot, for all the cheese...Its too early in the game for a "Hail Mary"..JMHO

First of all let me say that this shot of mine that you're knocking is your kind of shot...but quite naturally, you, and maybe certain other aggressive players on here, don't like it/wouldn't recommend it because I mentioned it first, instead of you/they ...and no, you wouldn't have to get "really lucky" to come out good on the shot, and it's not a "Hail Mary" - it's more like 60%-70% likely that you'd come out good...:heh...

As for you saying - "Ghosty, I really can't see you shooting that shot, for all the cheese"....well, I choose whether or not I want to shoot certain risky, but high-reward shots depending on what kind of match I'm in and how much is at stake....that said, you're probably right - I probably wouldn't shoot that shot if I was hill-hill in a DCC match - but conversely, if I was casually gambling for $30-$40 a game, I'd shoot it in a heartbeat.

- Ghrosty

PS, Meanwhile, where's Rod at - I know fer-sure he would shoot it...

 

[SJDinPHX]

First of all let me say that this shot of mine that you're knocking is your kind of shot...but quite naturally, you, and maybe certain other aggressive players on here, don't like it/wouldn't recommend it because I mentioned it first, instead of you/they...and no, you wouldn't have to get "really lucky" to come out good on the shot, and it's not a "Hail Mary" - it's more like 60%-70% likely that you'd come out good.

As for you saying - "Ghosty, I really can't see you shooting that shot, for all the cheese"....well, I choose whether or not I want to shoot certain risky, but high-reward shots depending on what kind of match I'm in and how much is at stake....that said, you're probably right - I probably wouldn't shoot that shot if I was hill-hill in a DCC match - but conversely, if I was casually gambling for $30-$40 a game, I'd shoot it in a heartbeat.

- Ghrosty

PS, Meanwhile, where's Rod at - I know fer-sure he would shoot it...

CASUAL, casual, you say...Since when is $30/40 "casual" for you ?.. (I will buy $10 or $20).

Sorry Ghrosty...I see it as about 70-80%, double kiss disaster sell out, or a scratch, at best !... I did not even notice your
'second' choice, 'til I read Steve's post. Did you not notice, I was agreeing with Bille ?

Nothing wrong with disagreeing on a shot choice, but I thought we were discussing "the best available shot, in a given situation"....

I don't think cutting the 3 ball, is a 'more conservative' shot...I think its the right shot.(given no one has made a ball yet)..If you can make it, or jaw it, whats not to like ?...I consider that being agressive !!!

PS..What if you were playing Frost or Alex...or it was your case $40 ?... Would that change anything ?.....Wheres Dr. Bill ? He'll straighten this out..

 

[tylerdurden]

I think it gets overlooked sometimes when you are on or near a rail that coming off the closest ball may be a very prudent move, if one of your potential shot choices is off that close ball anyway.

I'd come off that 3 here myself. Its nice because the hit looks like its a "buffered" half ball, or at least close to it, maybe a little thinner.

 

[Skin]

I'll try and make some sense here........

I think the cueball can't possibly travel on the path of the red line. It will travel on a different line that is close to the red line, and they will both meet at the "object" as you call it.

For example, if a sliver of another object ball lied on the red line, you could still hit the "object" because the cueball does not travel precisely on the red line.

The line the cueball travels would be a line from the "object" through the center of the ghostball (not provided in picture).

And even that is not completely true, because the cueball will hook slightly after contacting the object ball.

So while the diagram is good and I am glad that it was posted, it is not quite that simple.

Bob Jewett has a good article on this somewhere, which incorporates the slight deviation that the cueball path takes.

Chris, if the cb is stroked correctly (on ~ 1/2 hit or more), accuracy is pretty much independent of distance to the target. I think that is the take home message of Fred's post and he is correct in my experience. I use this shot a lot.

My diagram? Pffff! I just threw it together back when to illustrate Hoppe's prinicple when we were discussing a shot Joiner made. Just thought to repost it since Fred brought the idea up and some folks might not know what he meant.

Skin

 

[petie]

Regarding the Hoppe aiming method for follow shots, it does work. I have used it since I first read it in his book in the '60's. Byrne goes to great length to try to prove that it can't work because of how the cue ball first takes a path perpendicular to the hit and then bends forward but the Hoppe method of aiming is just that--a method of aiming. It is not meant to explain the physics of ball collisions. Anybody is free to try it. Use it and see if it doesn't work.

 

[ChrisBanks]

Chris, if the cb is stroked correctly (on ~ 1/2 hit or more), accuracy is pretty much independent of distance to the target. I think that is the take home message of Fred's post and he is correct in my experience. I use this shot a lot.

My diagram? Pffff! I just threw it together back when to illustrate Hoppe's prinicple when we were discussing a shot Joiner made. Just thought to repost it since Fred brought the idea up and some folks might not know what he meant.

Skin

I do agree with you and Fred, and I do use this method and I think it works very well.

I just think the cueball travels on a different path than the red line.

You can verify the hook by setting up a billiard shot with hole reinforcements and shooting it thousands of times. You will leave a curved white line on the cloth right where the cueball strikes the object ball.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I'm too tired to look and see who mentioned this shot but here is what Efren shot after getting down on the 3 ball three times and getting back up each time. I guess he saw something he didn't like.



Here's how he left it:

 

[SJDinPHX]

I'm too tired to look and see who mentioned this shot but here is what Efren shot after getting down on the 3 ball three times and getting back up each time. I guess he saw something he didn't like.

View attachment 4231


Here's how he left it:

View attachment 4232

Then Varner comes thin, off the 15, or, any number of balls, and puts him on the end rail, probably doubling him up with the 3 ball...Now hes in real trouble...Efren does not always shoot the right shot.

 

[lll]

Either the shot on the three or this.Or kick at the 13 ball.View attachment 4217

dennis
i'll send you my fee via pm for helping you out
:heh:lol( i love these new emoticoms)
FRANK GETS THE COOKIE

 

[lll]

Then Varner comes thin, off any number of balls, and puts him on the end rail, probably doubling him up with the 3 ball...Now hes in real trouble...Efren does not always shoot the right shot.

dick i agree playing off the 3 was THE SHOT
but tell us which ball would you thin off of and where would you leave the q on the end rail???

 

[androd]

Then Varner comes thin, off any number of balls, and puts him on the end rail, probably doubling him up with the 3 ball...Now hes in real trouble...Efren does not always shoot the right shot.

Or maybe this one .
Rod.

 

[SJDinPHX]

dick i agree playing off the 3 was THE SHOT
but tell us which ball would you thin off of and where would you leave the q on the end rail???

Probably off the 15, and send the cue ball, to the side rail, to the end rail near the RH upper corner pocket, trying to double him (Efren) on the 3 ball...Its a no brainer......Plus, you will open up another ball for yourself, and you will not graze the 15, hard enough to even get to the 9 ball...Mr. Varner should surely see this option...Rod's shot, is also another good option to trap...I just prefer the distance.

PS..Nick would not have had any of these options, had Efren gotten the 3 near his hole (or in)...Its all about risk/reward, in that situation..JMHO.. (but I'm not wrong)...Be interesting to see what he shot...

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Larry, trust the Ghost here, not Papie - nobody outmoves a ghost.....

Papie's recommended next shot - grazing the 15ball (which is actually the 11 ball - tell him again Dennis ) and going down to the end rail, that he says is the best choice, is not the best choice (might be second best) - it's extremely unlikely that Efren would be trapped by that shot...i.e. if you hit the 15 ball a fraction too thick you scratch in the corner - hit it slightly too slow or too fast and you leave an easy return safety: by coming off the side of the 10 to the long rail and dropping behind the 13, or by softly kicking the 4 ball....with Papie's shot, you'd have to have the cueball end up pin-point perfect to double him up with the 3ball, and even then, Efren wouldn't be trapped - he could just come off of the 6 ball and drop behind the 4 ball...

And I don't care what Nick shoots here either.....the place you want to get the cueball to in this spot, is in the area where Rod proposed/positioned it - on the opposite long rail, from 1 to 2 diamonds up from Efren's pocket - that's the place where the guy is trapped....but I wouldn't risk trying to get there via Rod's shot - too tough - you're shooting off the rail - way too much chance of having the cueball hit the 14 ball, or accidentally shooting the banked ball into the pocket points, or kissing the banked ball...instead, the way to get to Rod's spot on the long rail is by using...

...the old-school-intentional-scratch as an offensive weapon (as Freddy and I are great proponents of)....that said, if the 6 ball isn't in the way for me to get as short as I need to, I'd go 3 rails to get there - if the 6 is in the way, second choice is I'll shoot between the 4 ball and the long rail with 2-tips of right english, to the head rail and back to get there...unlike shooting from the head rail, from here, the shooter can't see the 11,12, 13, or 4 ball, and he's in big trouble.

- Ghost

PS, And Papie, don't be stubborn, please man-up and admit that I'm right, so that Larry and others that are on here to learn will receive the correct instructional information...