My Opinion On Opinions/Was Efren The Best Ever

Artie Bodendorfer

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philwelch said:
Ghost, I think it's obvious to anyone who plays one pocket that Efren doesn't always choose the right shot for example in that match where he played Tang in one of the games Efren needed only one ball and Tang needed quite a few. Efren tried to pocket a ball that wasn't an easy shot by anyones standard and missed it giving Tang a chance to come back. Why shoot that shot? I understand the reward is winning the game but the risk of losing the game when you have it all but locked up tells you to make a different choice.
YOu are so wright in what you just said. Because its even stronger for Efren to do the correct thing because he is a stronger shooter. and by him doing the correct thing it would even be harder for you to beat him then you beating someone else doing the wright thing because he has more talant and ability.
 

SJDinPHX

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philwelch said:
Gbru, if you are referring to me and Ghost going back in forth it's truly all in jest. Ghost does however take his one pocket, and one pocket knowledge very serious which is probably why I like to tease him from time to time. I can vouch for the Ghost he's a good guy and a serious one pocket player.

Phil,

Ghost is a doorknob, Most "C" players know more than he does. He wouldn't dare give me 10 to 5. :cool: But then I don't like One Pocket. my best game is 14.1, or Keno :eek: (or an occasional game of Skittles)

Dick <--- likes to keep it a little humorous. Please lighten up GBRU.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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SJDinPHX said:
Phil,

Ghost is a doorknob, Most "C" players know more than he does.

Dick


Listen here Mr. Over-the-Hill, I don't appreciate being attacked and insulted like this, and I demand an apology!!!....:mad:....

.....Wait a minute, I changed my mind, I accept being a doorknob, as long as I'm the inner doorknob of the dressing room at the Victoria's Secret store....:eek:..:D..:cool:
 

SJDinPHX

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Listen here Mr. Over-the-Hill, I don't appreciate being attacked and insulted like this, and I demand an apology!!!....:mad:....

.....Wait a minute, I changed my mind, I accept being a doorknob, as long as I'm the inner doorknob of the dressing room at the Victoria's Secret store....:eek:..:D..:cool:

Ghost, you may have forgotten that I have learned some new aiming systems.
I may never miss another ball (unless I forget my protracter) :eek:

Dick <---- P.J. is my new idol !
 

vapros

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Hold on a minute -

Hold on a minute -

This is not about Efren Reyes (and I believe he might be the best there ever was), but my observation is somewhat in line with the direction this thread is taking, and I want to get it in before we get too far into ladies' lingerie. If that's possible. It's farther than I have ever been, as I recall.

The very best performance in a one-pocket match that I have ever seen, and then only on a DVD, was by Mika Immonen at the 2003 DCC. He did such a job on Richie Richeson, and did it so fast, that I'm not sure Richeson ever even screwed his stick together. Even if he did, Immonen never let him use it. I'm sure an expert critique would find many errors in his performance, as he is not really a 1P player at all, but man! every shot came off just as he intended, including a few real blue ribbon swings.

If that was the only 1P match he ever played, (was it?) then there could be no doubt that he was the best.

Getting back to Efren, I have to question the argument that he is doing wrong with his shot selection, while he is pocketing balls, running out, winning your tournament or gathering up all your cash. You might safely maintain that those shots would be wrong for most players, or that they would be wrong if he had been playing RA or Bugs Rucker, but there will never be any proof. And for Efren, different standards are needed. Look, he's out again, and you lose!

Well rats, I guess this is just an opinion too, ain't it?
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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vapros said:
This is not about Efren Reyes (and I believe he might be the best there ever was), but my observation is somewhat in line with the direction this thread is taking, and I want to get it in before we get too far into ladies' lingerie. If that's possible. It's farther than I have ever been, as I recall.

The very best performance in a one-pocket match that I have ever seen, and then only on a DVD, was by Mika Immonen at the 2003 DCC. He did such a job on Richie Richeson, and did it so fast, that I'm not sure Richeson ever even screwed his stick together. Even if he did, Immonen never let him use it. I'm sure an expert critique would find many errors in his performance, as he is not really a 1P player at all, but man! every shot came off just as he intended, including a few real blue ribbon swings.

If that was the only 1P match he ever played, (was it?) then there could be no doubt that he was the best.

Getting back to Efren, I have to question the argument that he is doing wrong with his shot selection, while he is pocketing balls, running out, winning your tournament or gathering up all your cash. You might safely maintain that those shots would be wrong for most players, or that they would be wrong if he had been playing RA or Bugs Rucker, but there will never be any proof. And for Efren, different standards are needed. Look, he's out again, and you lose!

Well rats, I guess this is just an opinion too, ain't it?
Any good shooter can play good one pocket if he gets to shoot and run eight and out.But what happines when their is more moving and stratage used then everything changes.You can watch a avarage player play one pocket. And if he runs 8 and out 3 games in a row he can look like the best player in the world. Even playing nine ball if a good player runs 4 or 5 racks its pretty hard to look bad. But when great players play each other everything changes. And If those players like Immonen would learn to play correct one pocket he woiuld beat Efren. Thier is nothing to talk about. All he has to do is learn how to play.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
Any good shooter can play good one pocket if he gets to shoot and run eight and out.But what happines when their is more moving and stratage used then everything changes.You can watch a avarage player play one pocket. And if he runs 8 and out 3 games in a row he can look like the best player in the world. Even playing nine ball if a good player runs 4 or 5 racks its pretty hard to look bad. But when great players play each other everything changes. And If those players like Immonen would learn to play correct one pocket he woiuld beat Efren. Thier is nothing to talk about. All he has to do is learn how to play.
Efren is the best shooting one pocket player. Bugs and Ronnie were the best two aggressive one pocket players. And Eddie Taylor was the king out of all these players PLaying one pocket banks and nineball. He is the best in life of any player in all 3 games. Not one game. Taylor gets my vote.
 

androd

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
Efren is the best shooting one pocket player. Bugs and Ronnie were the best two aggressive one pocket players. And Eddie Taylor was the king out of all these players PLaying one pocket banks and nineball. He is the best in life of any player in all 3 games. Not one game. Taylor gets my vote.

You finally got someone to agree with you. Taylor was the" Man"
Rodney.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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androd said:
You finally got someone to agree with you. Taylor was the" Man"
Rodney.
All I can tell you Rodney is a say it the way I seeit weather I get one vote or no notes. I was around pool and I new wat was going on because thats all part of winning the money. Knowing who is who. And Taylor was great not taking anything away from the other 3 players. And Eddie taylor could realy play. HE is the king not the magician. And the two greatest bankers in life that I new were Taylor and Bugs. In nine ball I would take Efren Whimpy and the great Buddy Hall. And One pocket I would take Ronnie Efren and Bugs. And three Cushion billiards Hoppie Culemans and Harold worst. And in straight pool I would take Willy mosconie and Steve Mizrack. And caracters Fats Ronnie Cornbread and Fast Freddy the Chicago Beard. THose are my choices maybe someone else wants to give thier picks. It doesnt cost you anything. And you might even feel better. STICK AND STAY AND MAKE IT PAY.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
All I can tell you Rodney is a say it the way I seeit weather I get one vote or no notes. I was around pool and I new wat was going on because thats all part of winning the money. Knowing who is who. And Taylor was great not taking anything away from the other 3 players. And Eddie taylor could realy play. HE is the king not the magician. And the two greatest bankers in life that I new were Taylor and Bugs. In nine ball I would take Efren Whimpy and the great Buddy Hall. And One pocket I would take Ronnie Efren and Bugs. And three Cushion billiards Hoppie Culemans and Harold worst. And in straight pool I would take Willy mosconie and Steve Mizrack. And caracters Fats Ronnie Cornbread and Fast Freddy the Chicago Beard. THose are my choices maybe someone else wants to give thier picks. It doesnt cost you anything. And you might even feel better. STICK AND STAY AND MAKE IT PAY.
Even a blind squrral finds a acorn. ONce you quite you are a automatic looser.
 

fred bentivegna

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Does Effie have a flawed 1pkt game?

Does Effie have a flawed 1pkt game?

I have not responded on this thread until now because I didn't want it to seem that I was agreeing with Artie because we are in the make-up phase. Truthfully, Artie and I seldom agree on anything.
So what I'm doing is reprinting some posts that I made a while back on AZforum and here, to show that this was how I thought long before Artie brought the subject up. These are 3 different posts from 3 different threads that show my thoughts on the Efren subject. Efren doesn't need an Indian Guide to find his pocket, but he probably could use a GPS.


Post #1
Efren did not stay with Mike LeBron until after he did a one year stint at the Billiard Café in Chicago. Efren, Parica and Luat all hung there. I don't want anyone to be led to believe that Efren honed his pool and one pocket game in Philadelphia. It was Chicago, where he and I played almost daily. He learned one pocket from Billy Incardona (who also played him on a regular basis) and myself. Ask him. His learning and quick pick up of the game was not intentional. Nobody can stop that guy from learning. We started out with me spotting him 10 to 8, ten days later he was playing me 10 to 8. Chicago is also where Jose Parica learned bank pool by getting drummed on by the black bankers from the South Side and myself. In those days if you wanted to learn straight pool you went to New York, if you wanted to learn one pocket and banks, you came to Chicago. You probably wouldn't win, but you would learn.
Efren was watching me so closely when we were playing, and was absorbing knowledge at such an incredible rate that I had to put a cold deck on him. On certain key shots when he was most alert as to what I was going to do, I purposely shot the wrong shot, and sometimes had to give up the game to do it. I wanted to implant some wrong concepts into his fertile brain. I wasn't going to stand there and let him drain me like a sewer. I did a good job on him because he still does some of them.

Post #2
Efren played and gambled with me almost every day for over a year. I quickly determined that he was some kind of a genius, as I soon realized that he was draining info from me at an amazing rate while we played. I was also paranoid enough to see that he didn't want to just learn shots and moves, like most players, but he was seeking a foundation and inner understanding of the game. I think I could actually feel him probing into my brain when I was trying to solve a 1pkt situation. To defend against that, when a really difficult situation arose, and when I could feel him surreptitiously honing in on my thinking processes, I would sometimes purposely take the wrong path. This way he would think that he had found the info all by himself, and it gave the tainted concept more validity. It was quite different from me telling him what to do, whereby he may have had reason to question my honesty. Since this occurred when Effie was building his 1pkt foundation, I still believe some of the mis concepts are so deep-seated that he still sometimes falls prey to them. Unfortunately for his opponents, up until now he has had so much talent and ability, and is so much better than his opposition, that those minor flaws didn't show up often enough to make a significant difference.

Post #3
When I was playing Efren on an almost daily basis in Chicago back in the late 80's, it was obvious that he was soaking up 1pkt info at an alarming rate. Not wanting to be the pariah responsible for his greatness, I tried to inject as much bad info into his absorbing brain. One important thing I did, and this is where the "bravura" comes in, was when I had a lead and would go about cleaning up balls and shipping them up table rather than shoot a shot or move. I would make sure that I would do so in a most cowardly looking, self-demeaning, and abhorrent way, even tho in reality I felt no such compunctions. The reason was, I wanted him to look at shooting passive, clean-up shots with distaste, so he would continue to be aggressive when he had the lead, which would give me a better chance to win. He learned that infected lesson well. The downside of this was that he executed so well, and shot so much better than anybody else, this flaw wasn't exploited enough. As Grady once pointed out, if he is playing against someone with an equal speed to his, that disdain for playing the score would be fatal.

the Beard

Incidentally, I would have no problem telling Efren this to his face, and I already have many times. He is a great person, and he only laughs when I do it. He will also listen and consider any advice I give him about what he should have shot in a certain situation. I am one of the few humans that has that privilege with him. However, all that aside, if I can overlook that he didn't bet his own very often, and that he was lucky to not have to fade the great players of the 70s and 80s when they were in their prime, I have to concede that he is probably the all-time greatest.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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fred bentivegna said:
I have not responded on this thread until now because I didn't want it to seem that I was agreeing with Artie because we are in the make-up phase. Truthfully, Artie and I seldom agree on anything.
So what I'm doing is reprinting some posts that I made a while back on AZforum and here, to show that this was how I thought long before Artie brought the subject up. These are 3 different posts from 3 different threads that show my thoughts on the Efren subject. Efren doesn't need an Indian Guide to find his pocket, but he probably could use a GPS.


Post #1
Efren did not stay with Mike LeBron until after he did a one year stint at the Billiard Café in Chicago. Efren, Parica and Luat all hung there. I don't want anyone to be led to believe that Efren honed his pool and one pocket game in Philadelphia. It was Chicago, where he and I played almost daily. He learned one pocket from Billy Incardona (who also played him on a regular basis) and myself. Ask him. His learning and quick pick up of the game was not intentional. Nobody can stop that guy from learning. We started out with me spotting him 10 to 8, ten days later he was playing me 10 to 8. Chicago is also where Jose Parica learned bank pool by getting drummed on by the black bankers from the South Side and myself. In those days if you wanted to learn straight pool you went to New York, if you wanted to learn one pocket and banks, you came to Chicago. You probably wouldn't win, but you would learn.
Efren was watching me so closely when we were playing, and was absorbing knowledge at such an incredible rate that I had to put a cold deck on him. On certain key shots when he was most alert as to what I was going to do, I purposely shot the wrong shot, and sometimes had to give up the game to do it. I wanted to implant some wrong concepts into his fertile brain. I wasn't going to stand there and let him drain me like a sewer. I did a good job on him because he still does some of them.

Post #2
Efren played and gambled with me almost every day for over a year. I quickly determined that he was some kind of a genius, as I soon realized that he was draining info from me at an amazing rate while we played. I was also paranoid enough to see that he didn't want to just learn shots and moves, like most players, but he was seeking a foundation and inner understanding of the game. I think I could actually feel him probing into my brain when I was trying to solve a 1pkt situation. To defend against that, when a really difficult situation arose, and when I could feel him surreptitiously honing in on my thinking processes, I would sometimes purposely take the wrong path. This way he would think that he had found the info all by himself, and it gave the tainted concept more validity. It was quite different from me telling him what to do, whereby he may have had reason to question my honesty. Since this occurred when Effie was building his 1pkt foundation, I still believe some of the mis concepts are so deep-seated that he still sometimes falls prey to them. Unfortunately for his opponents, up until now he has had so much talent and ability, and is so much better than his opposition, that those minor flaws didn't show up often enough to make a significant difference.

Post #3
When I was playing Efren on an almost daily basis in Chicago back in the late 80's, it was obvious that he was soaking up 1pkt info at an alarming rate. Not wanting to be the pariah responsible for his greatness, I tried to inject as much bad info into his absorbing brain. One important thing I did, and this is where the "bravura" comes in, was when I had a lead and would go about cleaning up balls and shipping them up table rather than shoot a shot or move. I would make sure that I would do so in a most cowardly looking, self-demeaning, and abhorrent way, even tho in reality I felt no such compunctions. The reason was, I wanted him to look at shooting passive, clean-up shots with distaste, so he would continue to be aggressive when he had the lead, which would give me a better chance to win. He learned that infected lesson well. The downside of this was that he executed so well, and shot so much better than anybody else, this flaw wasn't exploited enough. As Grady once pointed out, if he is playing against someone with an equal speed to his, that disdain for playing the score would be fatal.

the Beard

Incidentally, I would have no problem telling Efren this to his face, and I already have many times. He is a great person, and he only laughs when I do it. He will also listen and consider any advice I give him about what he should have shot in a certain situation. I am one of the few humans that has that privilege with him. However, all that aside, if I can overlook that he didn't bet his own very often, and that he was lucky to not have to fade the great players of the 70s and 80s when they were in their prime, I have to concede that he is probably the all-time greatest.
Number one who would you take Efren Of Eddie Tayor playing banks one pocket and nine ball. THats number one. Number 2 You were the only one that had enough Balls to say that Efren played with a backer. THat answers a lot of quistions.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
Number one who would you take Efren Of Eddie Tayor playing banks one pocket and nine ball. THats number one. Number 2 You were the only one that had enough Balls to say that Efren played with a backer. THat answers a lot of quistions.
Who would you take playing one pocket Ronnie Bugs or Efren. Going in a Bad nabor hood in a bad equipment pool room and the have to take a sick out of the rack. And Number two do you think Bugs would have played better with his own cue and how much? And if the bet thier own moneyb who would you pick?
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
Who would you take playing one pocket Ronnie Bugs or Efren. Going in a Bad nabor hood in a bad equipment pool room and the have to take a sick out of the rack. And Number two do you think Bugs would have played better with his own cue and how much? And if the bet thier own moneyb who would you pick?
Freddy you can answer these quistions if you want to its not a trap. Any quistion you ask me I will be happy to answer about any player. And what I think. I hope you answere because a lot of people are interested in your opinion. And I think you have a good opinion. And you will give a more honest answer because you no the players and you like them all and you wont show no favortiseum.
 

wincardona

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You Really Don't Know

You Really Don't Know

Artie Bodendorfer said:
Who would you take playing one pocket Ronnie Bugs or Efren. Going in a Bad nabor hood in a bad equipment pool room and the have to take a sick out of the rack. And Number two do you think Bugs would have played better with his own cue and how much? And if the bet thier own moneyb who would you pick?

Artie, I respect your opinion on all the players of the past, you nailed it when you say that Taylor was the best in the three games, one pocket, 9 ball, and banks, but if you take out the banks then it's a different story, true? I also agree with you that Bugs was a feared player that played well under adverse conditions in rough neighborhoods, possibly the best ever in that inviroment, but then again he grew up in that inviroment, true? But what I don't agree with is your opinion on Reyes playing one pocket for several reasons. The first reason is that you were in LasVegas doing your thing, when Reyes was traveling the states doing his thing, and that was playing all the top players and spotting them and winning. Also you never played Reyes one pocket so it's hard for me to agree with your assessment of how well you think he plays. I on the other hand have played Reyes many times, as I did Ronnie, Bugs, and a lot of other great players, and my conclusion is that it's much more accurate once you experience something (anything)when giving your opinion on it. Now Ii'm not saying your not entitled to have an opinion on this, especially since your held in high regard as a one pocket player but it's seems a little unfair to me that you are so adamant when debating this comparison.Another thing Artie is your style of one pocket. When you were playing you were in the business of stopping things from happening, and you did that as good as any player. Reyes is in the business of making things happen, and he has been doing that much better than all the players, past and present.
 

SJDinPHX

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wincardona said:
Artie, I respect your opinion on all the players of the past, you nailed it when you say that Taylor was the best in the three games, one pocket, 9 ball, and banks, but if you take out the banks then it's a different story, true? I also agree with you that Bugs was a feared player that played well under adverse conditions in rough neighborhoods, possibly the best ever in that inviroment, but then again he grew up in that inviroment, true? But what I don't agree with is your opinion on Reyes playing one pocket for several reasons. The first reason is that you were in LasVegas doing your thing, when Reyes was traveling the states doing his thing, and that was playing all the top players and spotting them and winning. Also you never played Reyes one pocket so it's hard for me to agree with your assessment of how well you think he plays. I on the other hand have played Reyes many times, as I did Ronnie, Bugs, and a lot of other great players, and my conclusion is that it's much more accurate once you experience something (anything)when giving your opinion on it. Now Ii'm not saying your not entitled to have an opinion on this, especially since your held in high regard as a one pocket player but it's seems a little unfair to me that you are so adamant when debating this comparison.Another thing Artie is your style of one pocket. When you were playing you were in the business of stopping things from happening, and you did that as good as any player. Reyes is in the business of making things happen, and he has been doing that much better than all the players, past and present.

You nailed it again Billy !
 

lll

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When you( Artie) were playing you were in the business of stopping things from happening, and you did that as good as any player. Reyes is in the business of making things happen, and he has been doing that much better than all the players, past and present. wincardona , that is an excellent observation and very eloquently stated.
 

usblues

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Billys Take

Billys Take

To add clumsily to the above 2 accolades.If Billy says it weighs 5 lbs,you can wrap it.....
 
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