My Opinion On Opinions/Was Efren The Best Ever

[Island Drive]

Am I crazy thinking that Greg Stevens deserves at least honorable mention, especially in rotation games and snooker?

As I heard it -- think it was 1971 -- he robbed everyone at a big tournament in Houston, playing 72 hours straight, only to go broke after his mixture finally failed him the 4th day.

And I saw him do unbelievable stuff on a 9-ft snooker table. He'd make prop bets re beak, ball-in-hand, and running out using pool balls on that medium-tight table... and that was past his prime.

Chemical warfare, there were many greats, especially when the pockets were larger. The equipment of today, I much rather have Wimpy play sixteen hours, then get 8 hours of sleep and do it again over a period of 5 days.

 

[androd]

Chemical warfare, there were many greats, especially when the pockets were larger. The equipment of today, I much rather have Wimpy play sixteen hours, then get 8 hours of sleep and do it again over a period of 5 days.

Around 1980, invitational tourney in houston. Greg and Wimpy 9 ball match.
Greg won the lag and ran 5 racks, sixth rack got hooked after the break, rolled out, Wimpy said "go ahead" Greg sawed it in and ran the last six racks.

Someone said unbelievable, Wimpy said yeah, I need to work on my lag.
Rod.
P.S. That tourney's where the pic was taken. Those two and Ronnie.

 

[Ross Keith Thompson]

Greg Stevens

Greg Stevens

Watched Greg play many times in Houston in the late sixties at LeCue club. He spotted everybody something playing all games including three cushion. I far as I know no one ever attempted him playing even nine ball including myself, he was that good. Jersey Red would wait for Greg to get pumped up to a thousand or so and spot him 9 to 8 in one pocket and bust every month or so but would never play Greg even nine ball. At the ripe age of eighteen back in early 71 after a ring game of 10 ball I played Greg even one pocket and won big. One pocket wasn't his best game but it didn't take long to call row either. Could have been the best nine ball player ever among gamblers. Irving Crane was no doubt the king among non gamblers. He played all games extremely well and argument could be made that he was the best all around player that ever lived. I watched him run 7 straight racks of 9 ball against Lassiter in 1970 Johnston City in the 9 ball division before I played him following his match with Lassiter. He could hit you with a 150 balls at any time playing 14 and 1. He was a good one pocket player but I don't how he stacked up against the best at this time. He didn't gamble so measuring his one pocket game against other great players was tough to do but his 9 ball and straight pool didn't take a backseat to anyone.

 

[Ross Keith Thompson]

Greg Stevens

Greg Stevens

Watched Greg play many times in Houston in the late sixties at LeCue club. He spotted everybody something playing all games including three cushion. I far as I know no one ever attempted him playing even nine ball including myself, he was that good. Jersey Red would wait for Greg to get pumped up to a thousand or so and spot him 9 to 8 in one pocket and bust every month or so but would never play Greg even nine ball. At the ripe age of eighteen back in early 71 after a ring game of 10 ball I played Greg even one pocket and won big. One pocket wasn't his best game but it didn't take long to call row either. Could have been the best nine ball player ever among gamblers. Irving Crane was no doubt the king among non gamblers. He played all games extremely well and argument could be made that he was the best all around player that ever lived. I watched him run 7 straight racks of 9 ball against Lassiter in 1970 Johnston City in the 9 ball division before I played him following his match with Lassiter. He could hit you with a 150 balls at any time playing 14 and 1. He was a good one pocket player but I don't how he stacked up against the best at this time. He didn't gamble so measuring his one pocket game against other great players was tough to do but his 9 ball and straight pool didn't take a backseat to anyone.

 

[baby huey]

Everybody has good comments about who may have been the best one pocket player(s) of all time. I think Efren is but that's my opinion. Now if Efren has one glaring weakness, it is the up table game. I think if you can get them balls up table and if you can play yourself, you will find yourself in a winning situation. So, don't let him get that early start on you by running out and you are in it for sure.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

Everybody has good comments about who may have been the best one pocket player(s) of all time. I think Efren is but that's my opinion. Now if Efren has one glaring weakness, it is the up table game. I think if you can get them balls up table and if you can play yourself, you will find yourself in a winning situation. So, don't let him get that early start on you by running out and you are in it for sure.

Who would you bet on. If Efren played some one one pocket. And you rack the balls on the other end of the table. Playing the first person to make eight balls. On the bottom end of the table. Efren has the ability. I would not bet against him. Unless the other player knows something. To keep Efren in check.

When you watch Efren play and stroke the ball and his control in his best playing years. You will see a great player. And a real winner. Who has a better win percentage then Efren or has won more tournaments and money then Efren.

Efren would be a champion no matter what pool game he would play. Weather it would be snooker three cushion Straight pool. You name it. Efren ability is above thee other players. And if he took the time to learn and play and study these other games. You would see how great he rely could be. And he has the mind think and learn.

He has no weaknesses to exploit for the other players. But he would still have to learn to play these other games. To beat the best. Nobody can take his ability away. Only time will weaken his ability.

When we get older we cannot start from the beginning again. And learn all the things we could have learned.

 

[straightback]

Artie, while we may fail to reach a consensus in other areas, here we substantially concur. Number one, Efren's ABILITY is limitless on the pool table. However, as regards one pocket, he very, very frequently does not play the odds-on, winning shot selection. He does play heroic, amazing, dazzling shots, but in terms of long-term strategy, he just does not understand the game.

In large part, however, he doesn't have to understand the game. When he executes what he does as well as he does, and wins, why bother trying to comprehend the intricacies?

For me, this has always been kind of surprising, since he is so often lauded as being a smart player and person in general. Add to that his interest in chess and other games of strategy and it's a damn wonder he has yet to figure the game out on a deeper level.

I guess for him, it's just a weird American game you can win money at while in our country. I seriously doubt if he has ever played a game of 1p outside of America. I know I was chatting with Parica in 2010 or 2011 and I asked him the same question, and he said NO ONE plays it in the Phillipines.

If he was to understand the game well, he would have given BALLS to ANYONE in their prime.

 

[baby huey]

Artie, my point about Efren's up table game is that he doesn't play it enough to have the shots down. Now if he did play it more often then I agree with you that he would get it down. He doesn't like the up table game where movers in one pocket love the up table part of the game. That's why I love watching old geezers play one pocket in that they have so much knowledge about percentages and up table play that I always learn something about that part of the game.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Who would you bet on. If Efren played some one one pocket. And you rack the balls on the other end of the table. Playing the first person to make eight balls. On the bottom end of the table. Efren has the ability. I would not bet against him. Unless the other player knows something. To keep Efren in check.

When you watch Efren play and stroke the ball and his control in his best playing years. You will see a great player. And a real winner. Who has a better win percentage then Efren or has won more tournaments and money then Efren.

Efren would be a champion no matter what pool game he would play. Weather it would be snooker three cushion Straight pool. You name it. Efren ability is above thee other players. And if he took the time to learn and play and study these other games. You would see how great he rely could be. And he has the mind think and learn.

He has no weaknesses to exploit for the other players. But he would still have to learn to play these other games. To beat the best. Nobody can take his ability away. Only time will weaken his ability.

When we get older we cannot start from the beginning again. And learn all the things we could have learned.

You should stop this crap already. Efren can't play Bank Pool and he has no 9-Ball break.

Dennis

 

[keoneyo]

Id like to refer to the 2013 Accu-stats One Pocket Invitational dvd.
Numbered 1P13-12D.
A match between Efren Reyes and Shane Van Boening.
Commentated by Bill Incardona and Shannon Daulton.
It is a great match and commentary.
During the 2cnd and 3rd game or somewhere thereabouts the Cannon begins to talk about Efrens ability.
Im paraphrasing so you could listen yourself. Shannon says something like
"yeah Ive heard people criticize Efrens knowledge of the game. But Ive played him about 30 times in crucial tournament games and if you think Efren don't know the game, you don't know anything about one pocket". "He has done things to me which just turned my head around."

To which Dr Bill replies (something like). "Yeah well he doesn't play the NIT game well but people confuse that with moves."

They both laugh that I know that you know laugh.

But listen for yourselves.
Shannon is my favorite player as equal to me as Efren. For Shannon has no fear and exemplifies the spirit of American ingenuity and heart. Hes the only guy I know made Efren 3 foul a game away. He has some interesting things to say on the dvd about Shane, Efren, Buddy, etc. Take a listen.

 

[onepockethacker]

Id like to refer to the 2013 Accu-stats One Pocket Invitational dvd.
Numbered 1P13-12D.
A match between Efren Reyes and Shane Van Boening.
Commentated by Bill Incardona and Shannon Daulton.
It is a great match and commentary.
During the 2cnd and 3rd game or somewhere thereabouts the Cannon begins to talk about Efrens ability.
Im paraphrasing so you could listen yourself. Shannon says something like
"yeah Ive heard people criticize Efrens knowledge of the game. But Ive played him about 30 times in crucial tournament games and if you think Efren don't know the game, you don't know anything about one pocket". "He has done things to me which just turned my head around."

To which Dr Bill replies (something like). "Yeah well he doesn't play the NIT game well but people confuse that with moves."

They both laugh that I know that you know laugh.

But listen for yourselves.
Shannon is my favorite player as equal to me as Efren. For Shannon has no fear and exemplifies the spirit of American ingenuity and heart. Hes the only guy I know made Efren 3 foul a game away. He has some interesting things to say on the dvd about Shane, Efren, Buddy, etc. Take a listen.

Priceless.... Just imagine how good Efren could have been if he understood the game

 

[onepockethacker]

Artie, my point about Efren's up table game is that he doesn't play it enough to have the shots down. Now if he did play it more often then I agree with you that he would get it down. He doesn't like the up table game where movers in one pocket love the up table part of the game. That's why I love watching old geezers play one pocket in that they have so much knowledge about percentages and up table play that I always learn something about that part of the game.

Did you guys ever stop and consider HE knows the game WAY better than you guys and YOU guys are the ones that dont understand the game

 

[wincardona]

Id like to refer to the 2013 Accu-stats One Pocket Invitational dvd.
Numbered 1P13-12D.
A match between Efren Reyes and Shane Van Boening.
Commentated by Bill Incardona and Shannon Daulton.
It is a great match and commentary.
During the 2cnd and 3rd game or somewhere thereabouts the Cannon begins to talk about Efrens ability.
Im paraphrasing so you could listen yourself. Shannon says something like
"yeah Ive heard people criticize Efrens knowledge of the game. But Ive played him about 30 times in crucial tournament games and if you think Efren don't know the game, you don't know anything about one pocket". "He has done things to me which just turned my head around."

To which Dr Bill replies (something like). "Yeah well he doesn't play the NIT game well but people confuse that with moves."

They both laugh that I know that you know laugh.

But listen for yourselves.
Shannon is my favorite player as equal to me as Efren. For Shannon has no fear and exemplifies the spirit of American ingenuity and heart. Hes the only guy I know made Efren 3 foul a game away. He has some interesting things to say on the dvd about Shane, Efren, Buddy, etc. Take a listen.

Reyes does things when playing one pocket that others just don't do, it's all in his cue ball. He manages the cue ball better than any player in history, imo, playing all games. He's a master balk line player, with a touch of a violinist. Whenever he's in a difficult situation whether it's playing defense or offense, he bases his shot selection on cue ball first and then considers what's left. How many times have we seen him shoot shots that we didn't see, only to watch his cue ball end up in the greatest of shape. That's the strength of his game, even at his age he's still regarded as one of the best, if not the best one pocket player in the world.

Dr. Bill

 

[Del]

Reyes does things when playing one pocket that others just don't do, it's all in his cue ball. He manages the cue ball better than any player in history, imo, playing all games. He's a master balk line player, with a touch of a violinist. Whenever he's in a difficult situation whether it's playing defense or offense, he bases his shot selection on cue ball first and then considers what's left. How many times have we seen him shoot shots that we didn't see, only to watch his cue ball end up in the greatest of shape. That's the strength of his game, even at his age he's still regarded as one of the best, if not the best one pocket player in the world.

Dr. Bill

You hit it on the nail Billy. After watching Efren's one pocket matches- and I mean everything that is available out there on DVDs or on you tube, I will humbly add a couple of observations:

1. Right after the break, Efren takes his time studying the table, weighs in all available options and, it is often, very often, that his opponent ends up hooked, frozen on another ball or inside the stack with no place to go and no place to hide. He does this so often in the first few innings it is just plain demoralizing. Most players cannot recover and the game is over rather quickly. There are not many games where Efren has to deal with "up table" or wedge games. It is obvious that he does not like these kind of games and does a good job making it very difficult for the other players to put him in that position.

2. Once he has an open shot, he is probably the best in the world in running 8 and out, even with the most demanding table.

3. He is a very fast learner. He entered a 14.1 tournament in Portland, Maine and ended up winning it. Danny D. made the comment that "Efren never played strait pool before. He got better after each match and got 100 balls ahead of everybody".

4. Efren creativity, strategic thinking and superb technical skills are so advanced, nobody knows what he is going to do next. This makes it very hard for other players to have a game plan against him.

Having said that, Efren is human. He lost many tournament matches. I watched one when Buddy Hall "manhandled Efren" to quote the late Professor. Buddy beat 4 to 1 to win the championship. He also "out shot him and out maneuvered him"

 

[straightback]

I have seen all the same videos and agree with everything you said. Nonetheless, I still contend that if he learned a bit more long-range strategy, he would never lose a game and that he'd spot the best in their prime several balls. Some really good players might have needed 5 or more.

The "manhandling" match is the 98 LOP match from Baton Rouge, LA.

With respect to the subject of this thread, I do think he appears to be the best ever at this game. The only other name people arrive at is Ronnie Allen, who by all accounts played a very aggressive game. The few matches I have on video confirm this and that he played very intelligently while doing so. However, judging by his stroke in the videos I saw, I just cannot believe he had the arsenal of shots Reyes possessed and possesses, even in his early '60's today. I mean, Efren can make any ball with any English, he has superhuman cue ball control, his inside cue ball is maybe twice as good as the next best guy (probably Buddy Hall), his three-cushion skills add to his creativity - the list goes on and on.

He changed nine-ball with his kicking and safes and it is fair to say he altered the landscape of one pocket.

 

[keoneyo]

Part of the reason, in my opinion, Efren always says he is "lucky" is because of the tremendous talent that he had to beat. He doesnt underestimate them and neither should we. For Efren to say himself he is the "best" he knows would be wrong. Not when you have to get up in the morning and face a Buddy Hall, a Shannon Daulton, or a Nick Varner. Three of my favorites.
Its for us to say whose the "best". It is for us to banter that idea. It is our prerogative.
Id like to make note of one thing though. I find it amazing that Efren won all his championships on foreign soil. Sleeping in a strangers bed. Eating food youre not used to. Talking a language, written and spoken, that you cant navigate. Its intimidating to say the least. But the welcome we have given him shows that talent speaks no language and that is one of our prerogatives as well.
I traverse the Asian communities in California. In the Filipino community everyone knows who Bata is. Non pool playing waitresses, doctors, nurses, cooks, etc. They all know who Bata is. We should feel so "lucky" that we are the few outside of that community who know him as well.

 

[straightback]

Part of the reason, in my opinion, Efren always says he is "lucky" is because of the tremendous talent that he had to beat. He doesnt underestimate them and neither should we. For Efren to say himself he is the "best" he knows would be wrong. Not when you have to get up in the morning and face a Buddy Hall, a Shannon Daulton, or a Nick Varner. Three of my favorites.
Its for us to say whose the "best". It is for us to banter that idea. It is our prerogative.
Id like to make note of one thing though. I find it amazing that Efren won all his championships on foreign soil. Sleeping in a strangers bed. Eating food youre not used to. Talking a language, written and spoken, that you cant navigate. Its intimidating to say the least. But the welcome we have given him shows that talent speaks no language and that is one of our prerogatives as well.
I traverse the Asian communities in California. In the Filipino community everyone knows who Bata is. Non pool playing waitresses, doctors, nurses, cooks, etc. They all know who Bata is. We should feel so "lucky" that we are the few outside of that community who know him as well.

Very astute observations, Keone.