End Game Scenario#1 Reyes/butler

petie

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lll said:
im curious to hear your comments on efrens shot choice
why would you leave the cue ball open in the playing field?:confused:
usually arent you thinking
distance.....on the rail...... frozen to a ball....... in some combination when playing safety???
Weak. He left a bank. Might as well have gone for the 3 railer with lag speed.
 

wincardona

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lll said:
im curious to hear your comments on efrens shot choice
why would you leave the cue ball open in the playing field?:confused:
usually arent you thinking
distance.....on the rail...... frozen to a ball....... in some combination when playing safety???
The shot Reyes chose was the shot Viffer liked, I actually liked the three railer followed with the safety that Reyes shot if the three railer wasn't available.

Larry asked if when moving during the end game if you should be thinking distance, on a rail, or some sort of a compromising position for you to leave your opponent in? The answer to that question is clearly yes, but there are times when you must be thinking of surviving only. Playing any sport or game your starting position will always be factored into your countering move. ( except when playing poker )Reyes was in a difficult position to negotiate, understanding that a little miss hit here or there and he would of given up a shot to Butler. He shot the shot that he thought was the safest shot, in terms of not giving up a return shot, he hit it a little to fat, that was his mistake. I preferred a much thinner hit on the ob, playing the professional side of the safety with the cue ball. But than again with my hit I run a little more risk of scratching, which imo was a minimal risk.

As a rule of thumb when ever the convenience is available you should always (normally speaking) be thinking about leaving distance, and close to or on a rail with the cue ball. Like SJD said earlier that making that good hit on shots that carried distance, where speed and accuracy of the shot are crucial, often determined whether you would ultimately win or lose the game. Dicks statement should give you the answer to your question, and if you play the end game with that in mind you will win more games.

Billy I.
 

lll

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well butler banked the 1 towards his corner and left efren with distance
rb1.jpg
 

wincardona

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lll said:
efrens shot after butlers bank
View attachment 3512
As you play more one pocket you will develop a feel for angles, in terms of controlling the cue ball. Take this shot as an example. If you shoot directly at the one ball with a high ball NO english the cue ball after hitting the bottom rail should come straight back with a slight variance to the left as we look at the shot, based off of the angle of the hit. Your objective should be to reposition the ob where your shooting from and the cue ball basically on the side of the table your opponents pocket is on.

If the starting position carried the angle where you needed to cut the ob more, than you would need to apply inside english on the cue ball to ensure that the cue ball after hitting the bottom rail would not go to the left, as we look at the shot. To change the natural path of the cue ball you will need to apply inside english to alter the angle of the cue ball, to your liking.

This will become more apparent to us the more we play, and the better understanding we will have of changing the natural angle of the cue ball, when needed.

Imo this shot should be hit with a half a tip of inside english, to ensure the cue ball will not get away to the left after contact.

Billy I.
 

lll

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wincardona said:
As you play more one pocket you will develop a feel for angles, in terms of controlling the cue ball. Take this shot as an example. If you shoot directly at the one ball with a high ball NO english the cue ball after hitting the bottom rail should come straight back with a slight variance to the left as we look at the shot, based off of the angle of the hit. Your objective should be to reposition the ob where your shooting from and the cue ball basically on the side of the table your opponents pocket is on.

If the starting position carried the angle where you needed to cut the ob more, than you would need to apply inside english on the cue ball to ensure that the cue ball after hitting the bottom rail would not go to the left, as we look at the shot. To change the natural path of the cue ball you will need to apply inside english to alter the angle of the cue ball, to your liking.

This will become more apparent to us the more we play, and the better understanding we will have of changing the natural angle of the cue ball, when needed.

Imo this shot should be hit with a half a tip of inside english, to ensure the cue ball will not get away to the left after contact.

Billy I.
Billy thanks for taking the time and everyone on all the threads who have shared their insights into this sometimes confusing part of the game
billy if the one ball was farther off the rail and you were going to kick it out what english would you use on the cue ball in that situation?
 

senor

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wincardona said:
The shot Reyes chose was the shot Viffer liked.
I hate to speak for our little buddy, but I think dippy is in favor of slow-rolling up on the object ball, hitting it 3/4 full in the face, so that object ball moves an inch or two and the cue ball moves an inch or two. The resulting leave would have OB and CB facing each other near the side pocket still, with no offensive opportunity for the shooter. I don't like the shot for myself because I would feel like a fool to not get a rail and sell out a spot shot or get a rail and sell out an easy two-rail bank.
 

lll

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efren did play it like billy said
maybe the cue ball went fatrher uptable than intended but it did stay on butlers side
rr1.jpg

rb4.jpg

its now butlers shot
 

wincardona

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lll said:
efren did play it like billy said
maybe the cue ball went fatrher uptable than intended but it did stay on butlers side
View attachment 3516

View attachment 3517

its now butlers shot
Butler has to be careful when shooting this shot, he would like to play it two rails toward his pocket but to hit it accurately enough to give it a chance to go in he would come very close to hitting the point of the far right corner pocket:eek: If he hits the point he runs a high risk of selling out the ball, something I would strongly advise not trying. So the option would be to hit the ob more thickly and play more cue ball than ob. The ob should than go two cushions toward the side pocket, hopefully hitting below the side pocket and than toward the bottom cushion. Sorta like, he who quits and runs away lives to play another day.

Billy I.
 

Frank Almanza

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efren safe.JPGI don't like anything about the two railer. Because like Billy said the hit is too close to hitting the point and just trying to get it to my side of the table might give up a bank. I prefer to do something like this and wait for something better. I hate getting to this point of the game just to give it away. You just need to be careful not to pocket the nine ball into the top left corner pocket.
 

bstroud

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I think the correct shot is to thin the 1 ball with a little high right and put it in the opposite corner and put the cue ball up by Reyes' pocket.

Distance is so important in the end game that when you have the chance to use it you should.

Bill Stroud
 

androd

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Only shot for me.
Rod.
PS. I was making a picture while Billy S. was posting.;)
PPS. Make it a little high left.
 

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bbutler

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^ Ha ha, I thought about that shot, but I didn't want to leave Efren the two-railer or the kick bank. I'm pretty sure I ended up shooting at the two-railer to my pocket thinking; 1) who knows? I might hit it good and 2) I'd rather get beat shooting at my pocket than by playing a phony safety. Maybe I listen to Danny D's commentary too much.

As for the shot in the OP, I loved leaving even Efren there, because I thought the three-railer was absurd even for him, AND it was a really tough safety. Thinking about it now, I almost wonder if the right shot (for a tournament anyways) is actually to take a foul. You will need two to your opponent's one, but that's better than losing, and let's face it, you ARE Efren Reyes. Short of hitting the three- railer like Zeus, I just don't see a lot of good things that can happen from any defensive shot and whenever that's the case, I lean heavily towards taking an intentional foul.
 

CaliRed

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lll said:
ok this is from the 2011 us open
its the first game and its 7 balls each
efrens shot
i myself havent watched the rest of the match yet but we'll play this one out until the end and see what we can learn

efrens shot what should he do ?
if possible add the rational to why shoot that shot.
View attachment 3505
heyya larry....

I uploaded these videos at a much larger resolution. you can take a much larger picture of the table then the little tiny one you have here:)

if you need some help on this let me know. Maybe this weekend, I can remote into your pC and give you a couple of quick pointers on this. You going to be around this weekend? like sat later afternoon or late friday night? let me know.
 

lll

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CaliRed said:
heyya larry....

I uploaded these videos at a much larger resolution. you can take a much larger picture of the table then the little tiny one you have here:)

if you need some help on this let me know. Maybe this weekend, I can remote into your pC and give you a couple of quick pointers on this. You going to be around this weekend? like sat later afternoon or late friday night? let me know.
will sen you a pm:)
thanks for the help
 

lll

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bbutler said:
^ Ha ha, I thought about that shot, but I didn't want to leave Efren the two-railer or the kick bank. I'm pretty sure I ended up shooting at the two-railer to my pocket thinking; 1) who knows? I might hit it good and 2) I'd rather get beat shooting at my pocket than by playing a phony safety. Maybe I listen to Danny D's commentary too much.

As for the shot in the OP, I loved leaving even Efren there, because I thought the three-railer was absurd even for him, AND it was a really tough safety. Thinking about it now, I almost wonder if the right shot (for a tournament anyways) is actually to take a foul. You will need two to your opponent's one, but that's better than losing, and let's face it, you ARE Efren Reyes. Short of hitting the three- railer like Zeus, I just don't see a lot of good things that can happen from any defensive shot and whenever that's the case, I lean heavily towards taking an intentional foul.
Brian ,
thanks for coming on site and posting:)
it would be very educational to hear your thinking behind the shot selections in this thread.
if you can imagine your thinking then and now in retrospect
maybe not every shot but some in the sequence im going to show.

having input from a player of your level is what makes this site unique and helps all us one pocket afficianandos:)
 

bstroud

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androd said:
Only shot for me.
Rod.
PS. I was making a picture while Billy S. was posting.;)
PPS. Make it a little high left.
I really think the shot is better with high right. Go end rail, side rail to the end rail. High left if not hit well will leave aone rail bank.

Bill Stroud
 

lll

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brian did go for the 2 railer
but played it safer not risking hitting the point of the pocket
and left efren like this
eb5.jpg

eb6.jpg
its now efrens shot
 

SJDinPHX

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bbutler said:
^ Ha ha, I thought about that shot, but I didn't want to leave Efren the two-railer or the kick bank. I'm pretty sure I ended up shooting at the two-railer to my pocket thinking; 1) who knows? I might hit it good and 2) I'd rather get beat shooting at my pocket than by playing a phony safety. Maybe I listen to Danny D's commentary too much.

As for the shot in the OP, I loved leaving even Efren there, because I thought the three-railer was absurd even for him, AND it was a really tough safety. Thinking about it now, I almost wonder if the right shot (for a tournament anyways) is actually to take a foul. You will need two to your opponent's one, but that's better than losing, and let's face it, you ARE Efren Reyes. Short of hitting the three- railer like Zeus, I just don't see a lot of good things that can happen from any defensive shot and whenever that's the case, I lean heavily towards taking an intentional foul.
I watched a good part of your session with Efren...I sure didn't see many poor decisions, or misses...You played very well, and the session was much closer than the score indicated..

A few rolls at the right time (your way instead of his) could have led to a different outcome...Good tournament...Congrats.
 

bstroud

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lll said:
brian did go for the 2 railer
but played it safer not risking hitting the point of the pocket
and left efren like this
View attachment 3522

View attachment 3523
its now efrens shot
The shot now is rail first with high right. Kill the cue ball and send the object ball off the side rail to your side. The only danger is to not make the ball in the side pocket. You can avoid this by using a little less side.

Bill Stroud
 
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