Chronology Of A Cheater

Cowboy Dennis

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I knew that somewhere, somehow, I'd seen a suggestion from one of the worlds best bankers about the correct shot from here:

svb1.Jpeg

I had a few beers and got lucky & stumbled across it:).


SJD & Beard Interview said:
Cowboy Dennis: Freddy, I know that you are expert at one-pocket but your favorite game is banks, full-rack I presume?

Beard: Of course Dennis, only by playing full-rack banks can a man determine if he is truly a man. There's nothing like jacking up in the corner pocket and stroking in the straight-back on the ball on the spot for the game-winner.
The rest of the interview can be seen here:http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3919
 

fred bentivegna

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I knew that somewhere, somehow, I'd seen a suggestion from one of the worlds best bankers about the correct shot from here:

View attachment 6113

I had a few beers and got lucky & stumbled across it:).




The rest of the interview can be seen here:http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3919
While, as you know, I didnt really say that, but it aint too far from the truth. If I am feeling good and my oppo leaves me an inch or two out of the pocket or off of the back rail, I will gun at it. It happens to be one of the few long straight backs that I can make once in awhile. I know a few keys to the shot. I hit that shot better than if you would move the cue ball forward a foot for me.

Ask Ronnie Wiseman if I can make that shot. 2 years ago at DCC in the banks, the score was 2-2 and 4-4 and Ronnie knocked off the last ball hanging in the back corner pocket in a careless manner. Rather than burying me in the pocket or on the cushion, he left me about an inch or inch and a half off of the rail and I elevated 30 degrees, shot and whistled the game and match ball in. Just one of the many goofy things that I know about. It is sad,because I am near helpless on regular straight backs.

Beard
 

gulfportdoc

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While, as you know, I didnt really say that, but it aint too far from the truth. If I am feeling good and my oppo leaves me an inch or two out of the pocket or off of the back rail, I will gun at it. It happens to be one of the few long straight backs that I can make once in awhile. I know a few keys to the shot. I hit that shot better than if you would move the cue ball forward a foot for me.

Ask Ronnie Wiseman if I can make that shot. 2 years ago at DCC in the banks, the score was 2-2 and 4-4 and Ronnie knocked off the last ball hanging in the back corner pocket in a careless manner. Rather than burying me in the pocket or on the cushion, he left me about an inch or inch and a half off of the rail and I elevated 30 degrees, shot and whistled the game and match ball in. Just one of the many goofy things that I know about. It is sad,because I am near helpless on regular straight backs.
Fred, you wouldn't consider sharing those few keys for that shot, would you?

I'm surprised to hear you say that you're not good at regular straight-backs. Look at all those great ones you made on your tapes!;)

Doc
 

fred bentivegna

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Fred, you wouldn't consider sharing those few keys for that shot, would you?

I'm surprised to hear you say that you're not good at regular straight-backs. Look at all those great ones you made on your tapes!;)

Doc

I can make them only if I am close to them, Doc. The only long one I can make is the one where I am a couple inches off of the rail.

Beard

Two keys for the shot: Your back hand has to be at the very end of the butt, and your forearm has to be in back or behind the perpendicular line to the cue. When you stroke forward you only bring the forearm to the perpendicular point. That is all I am going to say about that.
 

wincardona

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I like Dennis' posts, but I don't agree on this (I guess I am one of the idiots :rolleyes:).

I think if we see a pattern there is something to talk about. I put my cue through a trashcan once. I am the mellowest player alive now, I don't say or do anything - ever. Not to talk about me, but I just don't think one incident should drag anybody down. Patterns should. I mean, he did try to cheat, i'm not trying to absolve him, just saying its possible/probable that it's not a pattern. Would I keep a closer eye on him as John stated, yeah. But lets let his actions speak now. Anybody who plays as much pool as he does will have many nefarious situations/calls pop up if they are in fact truly devious.
I'm late as usual, however, after reading this thread I can honestly say that everyone is right in what they say. There's no question that he cheated, he openly admitted that. (which should count for something) From that perspective alone he should be punished in some way. I agree with Tyler It's not fair to judge anyone on one incident and then label them for life. I believe that's what Cowboy is doing, relentlessly I may add. Since that incident SVB seems to be behaving quite well. ( that should count for something) And also, I never heard of him being accused of cheating or lying before this incident. (that should count for something) Well there's no guessing here what I believe but I would like to add one more thing before I end my post. When SVB admitted that he was cheating he realized that he was going to lose credibility with a lot of people, in spite of that he sacrificed his reputation when he admitted to it. The punishment he got for cheating was a self inflicted one, he sacrificed his reputation ...in hopes of forgiveness. That to me is possible....And my perspective.

By the way, Cowboy would of made a great 'lawyer'.. or even possibly a great 'detective' and I mean that in a complimentary way.;)

Dr. Bill

Bill Incardona
 

Tom Wirth

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I began frequenting this site only a few months ago and had not seen this episode between SVB and Morra. I had heard something about SVB having cheated but I was lacking any of the particulars so I didn't give it very much thought. I could have looked deeper into it to discover what actually happened but I didn't do that either. Now through Dennis' thread and the subsequent postings I've seen what others have seen and I want to thank Dennis for sharing this with us all. It needed airing.

I would not at this point label SVB "once a cheater always a cheater" but he did cheat and it needs to be recognized as such. For that I do not understand why he wasn't expelled from the tournament then and there. A loss of game is not enough IMO for an infraction of this kind. Harsh? What if Morra had not questioned SVB and lost the match as a result? What would have been the residual results of a SVB championship win in this event only to have it later known what occurred? What then would the message be to others from the actions of SVB? Is it OK if you can get away with it?

Has SVB made any public apologies for this incident? I would hope so but he also needs to do penance for the crime. Part of that penance is humiliation in having the incidence publicly displayed as Dennis has done here. I say good job Dennis. People can condemn or pardon him as they see fit but the facts should be known to all who involve themselves in this game.

Were I a TD I would look at this as a first offense and put him on probation for a period of time, but there would be no question but that I would be inclined consult with tournament officials to discuss possible immediate disqualification from the event. Maybe something less punitive could be imposed.

I give him credit for the fact that he eventually owned up to what he did but that does not mitigate the fact that he did it. Cheating is cheating but cheating of this magnitude can never be tolerated by a TD and must be dealt with harshly.

Bill, Forgiveness is always possible for those who sincerely endeavor to mend their ways. Self-inflicted punishment is good for the soul but insufficient to satisfy the integrity of a sport. I hope SVB has learned from his mistake and he becomes a positive role model for the game of pool. His exceptional skill with a cue stick requires exceptional responsibilities to the public. It's just the way it is.

Tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I'm not going to rehash this incident any more than this. I would like to ask a question of the guys who say "I never heard of him cheating before this" as if you would talk about the wrongs committed by a poolplayer anyway.

"Once a cheater always a cheater" is not an unfair label but I'll not argue that either.

My questions are these:

1. Do you really think he's never cheated anyone on a pooltable just because you've never heard of it?

2. Do you really think that a guy who would cheat with cameras rolling has never cheated when they weren't rolling?

3. Do you really think that he waited his whole life just to make this his first cheating incident? With cameras rolling? With a live PPV audience? With a TD watching? Knowing it would be on a DVD forever?

You guys reach & stretch for any excuse to make a poolplayer look less bad than he made himself. You cannot mitigate his actions in this incident. When you see someone over the age of 10 cheating in a poolgame you can be certain they've done it before and are comfortable with it because of repetition.

There are still people who don't believe he cheated at all even though it's on DVD. They make excuses for him and I'm blamed for bringing it up.

To my knowledge SVB has not apologized to anyone for this incident. If he would come on here and apologize and truthfully answer questions I would never mention it again.

Dennis
 

wincardona

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I'm not going to rehash this incident any more than this. I would like to ask a question of the guys who say "I never heard of him cheating before this" as if you would talk about the wrongs committed by a poolplayer anyway.

"Once a cheater always a cheater" is not an unfair label but I'll not argue that either.

My questions are these:

1. Do you really think he's never cheated anyone on a pooltable just because you've never heard of it? ( Maybe he has but I never heard of it)

2. Do you really think that a guy who would cheat with cameras rolling has never cheated when they weren't rolling? ( That would be my inclination as well, however your question is what's referred to as 'a loaded question')

3. Do you really think that he waited his whole life just to make this his first cheating incident? With cameras rolling? With a live PPV audience? With a TD watching? Knowing it would be on a DVD forever? ( I really don't think he was thinking about those things, this to me was more of a mistake on his part as opposed to some blatant 'character flaw')

You guys reach & stretch for any excuse to make a poolplayer look less bad than he made himself. You cannot mitigate his actions in this incident. When you see someone over the age of 10 cheating in a poolgame you can be certain they've done it before and are comfortable with it because of repetition. ( You're probably right on every thing except the 'comfortable with it ' part.)

There are still people who don't believe he cheated at all even though it's on DVD. They make excuses for him and I'm blamed for bringing it up.

To my knowledge SVB has not apologized to anyone for this incident. If he would come on here and apologize and truthfully answer questions I would never mention it again.

Dennis
You're pretty much correct when you say that I try to defend pool players and 'right the wrongs' they commit. However, I really don't try to 'right the wrongs' of pool players mistakes, but what i'm guilty of is ...mitigating the offense to a degree where it looks less offensive. I will do this when there are supporting factors that support my view on a situation that could be perceived in different ways.:sorry I'm a pool player and grew up in that environment, and 'trust me' it's not an easy life. Yes, pool players are a family, just like .golfers..basket ball players...doctors...and lawyers are, and we as family members, as well as family members of all other families have an unwritten code to not berate, or disrespect other members...unless it such a disgusting offense that suggest otherwise. When I look at this incident with Shane I honestly feel that he made a mistake and shouldn't be labeled as 'a cheater and a lyer' Shane lives in a 'glass house' and every move he makes will be scrutinized, his successes will be recognized and his mistakes will be pronounced and more 'eye catching' then others. If we were all scrutinized as aggressively as celebrities are can you imagine how many 'cheats and lyers' there would be? :sorry

Dr. Bill
 

mr3cushion

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You're pretty much correct when you say that I try to defend pool players and 'right the wrongs' they commit. However, I really don't try to 'right the wrongs' of pool players mistakes, but what i'm guilty of is ...mitigating the offense to a degree where it looks less offensive. I will do this when there are supporting factors that support my view on a situation that could be perceived in different ways.:sorry I'm a pool player and grew up in that environment, and 'trust me' it's not an easy life. Yes, pool players are a family, just like .golfers..basket ball players...doctors...and lawyers are, and we as family members, as well as family members of all other families have an unwritten code to not berate, or disrespect other members...unless it such a disgusting offense that suggest otherwise. When I look at this incident with Shane I honestly feel that he made a mistake and shouldn't be labeled as 'a cheater and a lyer' Shane lives in a 'glass house' and every move he makes will be scrutinized, his successes will be recognized and his mistakes will be pronounced and more 'eye catching' then others. If we were all scrutinized as aggressively as celebrities are can you imagine how many 'cheats and lyers' there would be? :sorry

Dr. Bill

Billy; ALL this kid is guilty of, is being EXREMELY STUPID and an IDIOT! NO ONE that was thinking correctly would do such a thing for, "chump change" and ruin a perfectly good reputation, this IMHO on the subject!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Billy; ALL this kid is guilty of, is being EXREMELY STUPID and an IDIOT! NO ONE that was thinking correctly would do such a thing for, "chump change" and ruin a perfectly good reputation, this IMHO on the subject!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
Honesty...Valuable

Integrity...Very valuable

Reputation...Very, very valuable

Giving yourself up in your own post and not seeming to know it...Priceless.

Dennis
 

mr3cushion

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Another genius from Hamtramck, doing what you do best, nothing important!

Anytime YOU want some of that one n one, just let me know, "shop rat!"

You just don't how to keep a lid on it!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 
Last edited:

Fatboy

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I'm late as usual, however, after reading this thread I can honestly say that everyone is right in what they say. There's no question that he cheated, he openly admitted that. (which should count for something) From that perspective alone he should be punished in some way. I agree with Tyler It's not fair to judge anyone on one incident and then label them for life. I believe that's what Cowboy is doing, relentlessly I may add. Since that incident SVB seems to be behaving quite well. ( that should count for something) And also, I never heard of him being accused of cheating or lying before this incident. (that should count for something) Well there's no guessing here what I believe but I would like to add one more thing before I end my post. When SVB admitted that he was cheating he realized that he was going to lose credibility with a lot of people, in spite of that he sacrificed his reputation when he admitted to it. The punishment he got for cheating was a self inflicted one, he sacrificed his reputation ...in hopes of forgiveness. That to me is possible....And my perspective.

By the way, Cowboy would of made a great 'lawyer'.. or even possibly a great 'detective' and I mean that in a complimentary way.;)

Dr. Bill

Bill Incardona

remember about 5 years ago Busty made a 2-9 combo and the crowd went nuts in Japan or somewhere(wasnt a american event), before he realized he shit the 9 in??? then he played along with it and got the rack? It was a close hit the 9 rolled under him and he didnt see it. He didn't catch a beef for it, if he did it didnt stick

IMO one of the problems in pool, is it labels people forever, pool dont forget. I could go broke, but Fatboy will always be rich. And thats not right, What SVB did was bad, I wasnt in his shoes that day, perhaps he was pissed off cause he went off at craps and wanted the win or NEEDED the win real bad-so bad he pulled a move. What i do know is as long as someone is square with me i'm ok with them.
 

WhatWouldWojoDo

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Svb

Svb

I do agree it was bad judgement on his part. It appears he was initially going to spot the ball, but the Crowd, JM and the TD all seemed to think he made a good shot, and he didn't go to rack the balls and take the win until JM and the TD grabbed the balls for him?

Countless times I've seen local players either make a bad hit, not get a rail, or some other form of a foul and immediately look at the opponent (who wasn't watching) then go sit down without saying anything like it was a good hit.

People make poor decisions and make mistakes, if this is the only incident that SVB's had against him, then I wouldn't ruin his reputation and career over it. If he tried to pull the same thing later, then I'd lose respect for him.
 

tylerdurden

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I do agree it was bad judgement on his part. It appears he was initially going to spot the ball, but the Crowd, JM and the TD all seemed to think he made a good shot, and he didn't go to rack the balls and take the win until JM and the TD grabbed the balls for him?

Countless times I've seen local players either make a bad hit, not get a rail, or some other form of a foul and immediately look at the opponent (who wasn't watching) then go sit down without saying anything like it was a good hit.

People make poor decisions and make mistakes, if this is the only incident that SVB's had against him, then I wouldn't ruin his reputation and career over it. If he tried to pull the same thing later, then I'd lose respect for him.
I agree with what you said about svb, I don't agree with anything you said in that middle paragraph though. On that thought, it reminds me of this discussion I got into the other night. A guy did not get his deposit for a room back in full because if some water damage. The guy called the landlord when the water was coming in initially. The landlord did not follow up. The landlord then had the nerve to take the damages out of this guys deposit months later. I just don't think we are responsible in the slightest for other people's problems - if that analogy comparing pool to renting a place made any sense I have no idea. It did to me.
 

androd

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Well there's not a big difference between kissing the head of it and putting it all in your mouth.
Rod
P.S. Unless you're an Icon. :)
 

backplaying

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I do agree it was bad judgement on his part. It appears he was initially going to spot the ball, but the Crowd, JM and the TD all seemed to think he made a good shot, and he didn't go to rack the balls and take the win until JM and the TD grabbed the balls for him?

Countless times I've seen local players either make a bad hit, not get a rail, or some other form of a foul and immediately look at the opponent (who wasn't watching) then go sit down without saying anything like it was a good hit.

People make poor decisions and make mistakes, if this is the only incident that SVB's had against him, then I wouldn't ruin his reputation and career over it. If he tried to pull the same thing later, then I'd lose respect for him.
I agree. I don't think anyone should get a life sentence for this.
 

WhatWouldWojoDo

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Cheating

Cheating

I agree with what you said about svb, I don't agree with anything you said in that middle paragraph though. On that thought, it reminds me of this discussion I got into the other night. A guy did not get his deposit for a room back in full because if some water damage. The guy called the landlord when the water was coming in initially. The landlord did not follow up. The landlord then had the nerve to take the damages out of this guys deposit months later. I just don't think we are responsible in the slightest for other people's problems - if that analogy comparing pool to renting a place made any sense I have no idea. It did to me.
I just have seen people try to get a slight advantage through cheating. I personally think pool is like golf in the way that you can and should call fouls on yourself.

I have the reputation at pool league, where pretty much every other captain we play against is fine with me calling hit-calls on my own players. They all know that I will not hesitate to call a foul on myself or my own players. It is about what is right.

I know some players that will intentionally try to shark you while your playing, even when not playing for money!!! I don't understand this. If you can't beat a player straight up, why resort to sharking/cheating?
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I just have seen people try to get a slight advantage through cheating. I personally think pool is like golf in the way that you can and should call fouls on yourself.This only shows you don't know anything about golf or pool. When a golfer calls a foul on himself only HE can be hurt by it.

I have the reputation at pool league, where pretty much every other captain we play against is fine with me calling hit-calls on my own players. They all know that I will not hesitate to call a foul on myself or my own players. It is about what is right. It is about what the rules call for and playing within them. That's what the rules are there for.

I know some players that will intentionally try to shark you while your playing, even when not playing for money!!! I don't understand this. If you can't beat a player straight up, why resort to sharking/cheating?
You really need to get out more.

Dennis
 

petie

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in my experience, damn few of us live up to our own standards. Even fewer live up to the standards imposed by others.
 
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