Chronology Of A Cheater

SactownTom

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Tom,

Did you read the original post I made when this incident first happened? I started that thread minutes after the final match ended (to my recollection). Nobody had yet made comments in defense of SVB here or on the AZ site. The comments I quoted all came from people here or on AZ in defense of SVB. I didn't go on "attack" mode or anything first, I responded to people who defended SVB's actions. There's a difference to me. There were no "nuthugger" comments by me until the nuthuggers started defending SVB.

If it that important, I will go back and read it. I know there are tons of SVB avid supporters that do not like to hear any mud slinging about him at all.

My comments have not been "spewed in advance of any responses", my comments were made months ago in response to SVB's nuthuggers.

Let me ask you a serious question since you are interested in my motives: If you had seen this incident would you have started a thread commenting on it? Would you post pics, if available, to show what happened? If I didn't do it then tell me who would have done it. Even people who saw it didn't believe it and made excuses for SVB.

No, I would not go to the lengths you have, but I will say that you have that right and for all the reasons you stated. My problem was thinking that no one could be that single minded about this subject, I was wrong. I apologize for thinking you had additional agendas. If I read these posts and your responses correctly, you feel it is your duty as a member of the pool community to expose liars and cheaters when ever possible, especially those players that do it so obviously.



I've done it because nobody else did and probably nobody else would.

Dennis
Carry on Sir, I will no longer question your motive.
 

Scrzbill

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Bill,

You are missing a major point: SVB finally admitted to Schuman & Morra that he called the ball 4 rails. Schuman called that out to the audience. It's on the DVD. That's SVB admitting being a liar right there in front of everybody.

P.S. Schuman was taken in by SVB's act also, that's why he carried the balls from SVB's tray and dumped them on the table. Schuman is an employee and if he want's to continue being one he probably won't attack SVB.

Are we running low on meds Bill?

Dennis
If you read the article in Cue Sports journal, vol XII issue 4, Ken addresses the whole deal. Having a brain fart is a lot different that cheating. How is admitting you were wrong being a liar? According to Ken, he asked Shane if he called four rails and he said he did. Shane was called out on his shot choice, his mistake, and admits he did call it four rails. Lying would be claiming he said two rails. When you in front of a big crowd like that and you have just made the biggest boner possible, your feeling a little small. I was there watching the whole thing and it was confusing in the stands. I thought Shane had won and then......A there is a pause, it may or may not be because Shane forgot what he called. I don't know and I can't read his mind. To take something completely out of context and put your own meaning on them is a reach. A good cheating example would be the one where the guy stole the ball. This is just conjecture.
What meds would that be Dennis? My chronic pain meds that allow me to have a portion of the life I used to have? I have plenty and every day I am happy to say, I have to take less. Thanks for asking though. Are you in the medical field? You're familiar with Buphrenorphine?:eek::eek:
 
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Banks

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I think I'm one of the ones that went with the momentary lapse, but it does look pretty clear that he had it in his head as soon as he saw it going to the pocket. If even a friend tried pulling one on me like that for even a buck, you'd bet I'd remember it. This is where being a man/adult comes in.. when you screw up, you admit that you screwed up and apologize for it. It doesn't really sound like he did either, except for admitting he didn't call the pocket.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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If you read the article in Cue Sports journal, vol XII issue 4, Ken addresses the whole deal. Having a brain fart is a lot different that cheating. How is admitting you were wrong being a liar? According to Ken, he asked Shane if he called four rails and he said he did. Shane was called out on his shot choice, his mistake, and admits he did call it four rails. Lying would be claiming he said two rails. When you in front of a big crowd like that and you have just made the biggest boner possible, your feeling a little small. I was there watching the whole thing and it was confusing in the stands. I thought Shane had won and then......A there is a pause, it may or may not be because Shane forgot what he called. I don't know and I can't read his mind. To take something completely out of context and put your own meaning on them is a reach. A good cheating example would be the one where the guy stole the ball. This is just conjecture.
What meds would that be Dennis? My chronic pain meds that allow me to have a portion of the life I used to have? I have plenty and every day I am happy to say, I have to take less. Thanks for asking though. Are you in the medical field? You're familiar with Buphrenorphine?:eek::eek:
The meds I refer to are the ones that so distort what little logic & thought process you do have. You refuse to accept the truth. Watch the DVD.

This is an exact, word for word quote from Ken Schuman explaning his decision:

KS: "Shane called his shot 4 rails. He made the ball 2 rails so the ball shouldn't count but then he picked up the balls as if the game was over. That's loss of game. Game to John Morra."

Note the red words Bill, SVB pretended to have won the game. I don't care what Schuman says months later, this is what he said at the time to all that could hear.

He announced this to the audience, both the live audience and the livestream audience. This is not a secret Bill.

Do you think that I own the only recording of this match. Why would I distort what happened?

Why did SVB give a signal to Morra that he had played the 3 ball two-rails?

Why did SVB go get his break cue instead of spotting the wrongly-pocketed 3 ball?

Why did SVB start racking instead of spotting the wrongly-made 3 ball?

Why did SVB act like he had won the game?

Why did Morra & Schuman both bring balls to the table and place them on the table? Do you think they both made the same error at the same time?

I'll tell you why Bill, for the last time:

He heard the audience applauding loudly thinking he played the 3 ball two rails. From the time he rolled the 3 ball towards the spot to be spotted up to the time he got to the side pocket and gave a nod to Morra it was only a second or two that elapsed. The 3 was still rolling to the foot of the table when SVB decided to "fake" like he had won and to "take a shot". He didn't think he would get caught, that's why he did it.

P.S. Schuman's explanation to the audience is not completely accurate either. SVB did not touch balls on the table until Morra & Schuman put balls back on the table but they did this because SVB gave the nod to Morra indidcating that he had played the 3 ball two-rails.

I'll not comment to you any further in this thread, you refuse to believe what happened even though you haven't seen it. Watch the match Bill.

Dennis
 

John Brumback

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I think I'm one of the ones that went with the momentary lapse, but it does look pretty clear that he had it in his head as soon as he saw it going to the pocket. If even a friend tried pulling one on me like that for even a buck, you'd bet I'd remember it. This is where being a man/adult comes in.. when you screw up, you admit that you screwed up and apologize for it. It doesn't really sound like he did either, except for admitting he didn't call the pocket.
He did admitt that he called it,it's just that it was the wrong pocket he called and he tried to take credit for it going into the wrong pocket.( I know I don't have to tell you all this)To me,that makes it pretty clear what his intentions were.Everyone can have their opinon.I know I have mine,now.John B.
PS: bet he puts his pants on just like the rest of us.
 

tylerdurden

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I like Dennis' posts, but I don't agree on this (I guess I am one of the idiots :rolleyes:).

I think if we see a pattern there is something to talk about. I put my cue through a trashcan once. I am the mellowest player alive now, I don't say or do anything - ever. Not to talk about me, but I just don't think one incident should drag anybody down. Patterns should. I mean, he did try to cheat, i'm not trying to absolve him, just saying its possible/probable that it's not a pattern. Would I keep a closer eye on him as John stated, yeah. But lets let his actions speak now. Anybody who plays as much pool as he does will have many nefarious situations/calls pop up if they are in fact truly devious.
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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I like Dennis' posts, but I don't agree on this (I guess I am one of the idiots :rolleyes:).

I think if we see a pattern there is something to talk about. I put my cue through a trashcan once. I am the mellowest player alive now, I don't say or do anything - ever. Not to talk about me, but I just don't think one incident should drag anybody down. Patterns should. I mean, he did try to cheat, i'm not trying to absolve him, just saying its possible/probable that it's not a pattern. Would I keep a closer eye on him as John stated, yeah. But lets let his actions speak now. Anybody who plays as much pool as he does will have many nefarious situations/calls pop up if they are in fact truly devious.
TD,

I don't think you are an idiot, I always make certain to read your posts. I agree with your supposition about noticing the pattern of behavior so let me make a statement and then ask you a question.

On the AccuStats site there are 9 matches available for the 2012 DCC BankPool division. That means, at most, 18 players on video playing BankPool. SVB is on two of the matches, both times playing John Morra in the 1st & 2nd finals. Morra also plays another match leaving the number at 13 players other than JM & SVB that can be purchased at AccuStats for the BankPool. A contrary, unfair person could take this to mean that SVB cheated 50% of the time since he cheated in one of the matches with Morra that was on video.

My point is that we don't get to see every player play every match, only the T.V. table matches make it to DVD or are shown live (to my knowledge). The odds that you would see a player cheat are probably very low. First, they would have to be on the T.V. table. Second, they would have to cheat. Third, you would have to be watching at the time or have bought the DVD and seen it. Fourth, you would have to notice that a player was cheating at all. I quite often watch these DVD's while I'm watching T.V. and I don't always pay close attention to the proceedings until they get interesting to me.

So to my question: How many unscrupulous incidents by SVB would be required by you to say it's more than "not a pattern"?


Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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So to my question: How many unscrupulous incidents by SVB would be required by you to say it's more than "not a pattern"?


Dennis
It would be pretty easy for me to be convinced, which is my point (I think :confused:). Hear word of mouth either on here or in person from another player (who I trust) or two who had similar experiences. Or even a fan or two.

When you can surmise in your own head that it's not just people trying to bring him down, and not just a single brain fart he had (i'll def give him the benefit of the doubt once) then there is a pattern there. And obviously, as much pool as he plays, you'd hear about more and more of this stuff over the years. So the pattern would really solidify. I'm just not ready to put him in dirtbag category yet :) But my mind could change quickly. Why, do you have another case of him pulling something?
 

John Brumback

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I like Dennis' posts, but I don't agree on this (I guess I am one of the idiots :rolleyes:).

I think if we see a pattern there is something to talk about. I put my cue through a trashcan once. I am the mellowest player alive now, I don't say or do anything - ever. Not to talk about me, but I just don't think one incident should drag anybody down. Patterns should. I mean, he did try to cheat, i'm not trying to absolve him, just saying its possible/probable that it's not a pattern. Would I keep a closer eye on him as John stated, yeah. But lets let his actions speak now. Anybody who plays as much pool as he does will have many nefarious situations/calls pop up if they are in fact truly devious.
Hey,Is there a rule that says you can't put your cue through a trashcan.I try to keep up with these things ya know:p :sorry I just couldn't help myself:lol And no, you are not an idiot.You seem to make alot of sense.

Just think though If John M. didn't catch it and svb he went ahead and won the tourny and then It came out on dvd:eek: I don't know if anyone could do anything after the fact or not.It's really very hard for me just to look the other way on this.I'm like Dennis,I don't care who or what he is.He shouldn't have tried to pull that move.Brain farts and stuff like that just don't cut it either in this situation,imo.Take care and good luck. John B.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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It would be pretty easy for me to be convinced, which is my point (I think :confused:). Hear word of mouth either on here or in person from another player (who I trust) or two who had similar experiences. Or even a fan or two.

When you can surmise in your own head that it's not just people trying to bring him down, and not just a single brain fart he had (i'll def give him the benefit of the doubt once) then there is a pattern there. And obviously, as much pool as he plays, you'd hear about more and more of this stuff over the years. So the pattern would really solidify. I'm just not ready to put him in dirtbag category yet :) But my mind could change quickly. Why, do you have another case of him pulling something?
TD,

I don't try to bring anyone down. One person posting on the internet can't hurt anybody. I've written "bad" things about many players, mostly having to do with their shot selection though. I've been roundly attacked by many here for my opinions but I don't ever try to drag any player down just as a sport. Try to think of Morra and what he was going through and what he stood to lose here. Many aren't doing that, they only think of SVB.

The other case of SVB "pulling something" is mostly a he said/she said, 50/50 type of questionable thing but as soon as I saw it I SAW it. It happened the next day after Morra beat SVB in the Bank finals. Would you like to see it, knowing that it's not a definitive condemnation of SVB but it is telling? Apparently nobody noticed it but me, not even the co-commentators Jay Helfert & Mark Wilson. It was his opponent's mistake but SVB let him spot a ball he didn't owe, early in the game when he knew no balls were owed but that's subjective as always.

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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TD,

I don't try to bring anyone down. One person posting on the internet can't hurt anybody. I've written "bad" things about many players, mostly having to do with their shot selection though. I've been roundly attacked by many here for my opinions but I don't ever try to drag any player down just as a sport. Try to think of Morra and what he was going through and what he stood to lose here. Many aren't doing that, they only think of SVB.

The other case of SVB "pulling something" is mostly a he said/she said, 50/50 type of questionable thing but as soon as I saw it I SAW it. It happened the next day after Morra beat SVB in the Bank finals. Would you like to see it, knowing that it's not a definitive condemnation of SVB but it is telling? Apparently nobody noticed it but me, not even the co-commentators Jay Helfert & Mark Wilson. It was his opponent's mistake but SVB let him spot a ball he didn't owe, early in the game when he knew no balls were owed but that's subjective as always.

Dennis
Dennis,

I wasn't talking about you when I said that, just mentioning if a player who I trusted approached me and I felt he wasn't simply trying to "bring svb down" (for whatever reason), then i'd be apt to add this to the evidence against him.

I believe you on the spotted ball situation. The thing is, as you allude to, it is neither here nor there type of thing, yet noted as always :)

I just plea to give the kid (and thus US pool) a chance :D
 

tylerdurden

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Hey,Is there a rule that says you can't put your cue through a trashcan.I try to keep up with these things ya know:p :sorry I just couldn't help myself:lol And no, you are not an idiot.You seem to make alot of sense.

Just think though If John M. didn't catch it and svb he went ahead and won the tourny and then It came out on dvd:eek: I don't know if anyone could do anything after the fact or not.It's really very hard for me just to look the other way on this.I'm like Dennis,I don't care who or what he is.He shouldn't have tried to pull that move.Brain farts and stuff like that just don't cut it either in this situation,imo.Take care and good luck. John B.
I'm with you. It was a big deal and who knows what could have potentially happened.

I have a tape of buddy and archer, and in the last game buddy moves a ball and the cb comes RIGHT over the spot of the moved ball (ie, it WAs a foul and ball in hand). This was hill hill too (I think). Anyway, very important game at the end of the sands. Buddy walked back to his chair (which I dont personally have a problem with), but you can see it move on my tape. Archer won that game shooting from where the cb was, so it was "not of importance". But the point is it is very important for the guy to be watching the table, even with a ref. Thank god morra got up in this situation.

I can dig that match up if anybody is interested (I have a feeling cowboy might be, hehe). Let me know.
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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I can dig that match up if anybody is interested (I have a feeling cowboy might be, hehe). Let me know.
Naw TD, I don't need to see it:). An object ball being moved and then the cueball traveling through that area is usually a very subjective thing to call. I never liked playing that way either. Usually only if the cueball hit the moved ball is what I played but others played it different. Of course, playing with clumsy players who constantly move object balls is a different thing altogether, they are a pain.

Dennis
 

tylerdurden

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Naw TD, I don't need to see it:). An object ball being moved and then the cueball traveling through that area is usually a very subjective thing to call. I never liked playing that way either. Usually only if the cueball hit the moved ball is what I played but others played it different. Of course, playing with clumsy players who constantly move object balls is a different thing altogether, they are a pain.

Dennis
I didn't explain good, but the cb DID hit the ob he moved. I failed to mention that. Anyway, just an interesting situation because it was the last game of the finals and could have potentially been so important.

Best.
 

John Brumback

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I'm with you. It was a big deal and who knows what could have potentially happened.

I have a tape of buddy and archer, and in the last game buddy moves a ball and the cb comes RIGHT over the spot of the moved ball (ie, it WAs a foul and ball in hand). This was hill hill too (I think). Anyway, very important game at the end of the sands. Buddy walked back to his chair (which I dont personally have a problem with), but you can see it move on my tape. Archer won that game shooting from where the cb was, so it was "not of importance". But the point is it is very important for the guy to be watching the table, even with a ref. Thank god morra got up in this situation.

I can dig that match up if anybody is interested (I have a feeling cowboy might be, hehe). Let me know.
You would not believe how many arguments I've had with ole Buddy.Nice guy and all that he is:rolleyes: The last one we had..you know what he said to me?....When do I get to win an argument.I said when you are right.I've won all 4 so far.

Oh,funny story about what Buddy pulled.He was in a big ring game and on his last barrel,well the guy in front of him scratches and no one is paying much attention,well Buddy takes ball in hand and runs on out Instead of shooting the spot shot:eek: I heard with my own ears,Buddy telling this story.haw haw haw.John B.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I didn't explain good, but the cb DID hit the ob he moved. I failed to mention that. Anyway, just an interesting situation because it was the last game of the finals and could have potentially been so important.

Best.
I showed a layout on here where Ervolino hit a ball with his cue and the cueball came around and hit it. This was in the middle of the "calling a foul on yourself" morality lessons that were being given by so many here. Needless to say, nobody saw the foul:). I'll say again, if nobody calls a foul then there was no foul. Here's the Ervolino foul that wasn't a foul: http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5115

Dennis
 

lll

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TD,

I don't try to bring anyone down. One person posting on the internet can't hurt anybody. I've written "bad" things about many players, mostly having to do with their shot selection though. I've been roundly attacked by many here for my opinions but I don't ever try to drag any player down just as a sport. Try to think of Morra and what he was going through and what he stood to lose here. Many aren't doing that, they only think of SVB.

The other case of SVB "pulling something" is mostly a he said/she said, 50/50 type of questionable thing but as soon as I saw it I SAW it. It happened the next day after Morra beat SVB in the Bank finals. Would you like to see it, knowing that it's not a definitive condemnation of SVB but it is telling? Apparently nobody noticed it but me, not even the co-commentators Jay Helfert & Mark Wilson. It was his opponent's mistake but SVB let him spot a ball he didn't owe, early in the game when he knew no balls were owed but that's subjective as always.

Dennis
i just saw that on the dvd im watching now
there was a coin on the rail left over from the previous game
chris ran a few balls then played safe he took his balls out of his pocket scooped up the coin placed his balls in his tray and took a ball to spot
up
as he walked back to his chair it appeared shane said something to chris which chris responded to but it definitely wasnt that you (chris) didnt owe a ball since the spotted ball stayed spotted and shane continued along
even the commentators were fooled because as chris went to spot the ball they said he owed one (erroneously)

is that how you saw it dennis??
 

Cowboy Dennis

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i just saw that on the dvd im watching now
there was a coin on the rail left over from the previous game
chris ran a few balls then played safe he took his balls out of his pocket scooped up the coin placed his balls in his tray and took a ball to spot
up
as he walked back to his chair it appeared shane said something to chris which chris responded to but it definitely wasnt that you (chris) didnt owe a ball since the spotted ball stayed spotted and shane continued along
even the commentators were fooled because as chris went to spot the ball they said he owed one (erroneously)

is that how you saw it dennis??
Larry,

I posted a thread this morning about that situation. Upon further review I believe that SVB made inquiry as to why Gentile spotted the ball. Gentile seemed to assure SVB that he did indeed owe a ball. Gentile went brain-dead, that's all, and he convinced SVB he was correct.

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6785

Dennis
 

lll

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i guess i went brain dead by missing your thread....:eek:
in my defence i was up all night too (not gambling).......:D
 
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