Another rules question

jtompilot

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Big argument at Buffalo’s in a gambling match. What’s the rule? What would you do.

Player A is breaking, player A miscues and uses his stick to stop the cue ball. Player A says game doesn’t start till the balls are broke. Player B says says game starts when cue ball is struck.

I’ve always believed the game starts when the cue ball is struck.
 

rnewkirk

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Jim, You know the correct answer. BUT, who are you playing ? If the opponent miscues breaking 1-pkt, he probably is getting spotted or is the weaker player, my guess.

I would let him shoot again and let it go. Normally, that is what happens 95% of the time anyway, in your friendly, daily $10, 20, 50 games.

If you are in a tournament, or gambling high, then you become a stickler of the rules. By the way, I did not look up the rule, this is my opinion.:confused:
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Pilot, we had a thread on this or it came up in a related thread. What happens if the breaker does not connect with the rack then What?
Obviously it is a foul, and the breaker score is now -1pt. But, I believe it was Doc that suggested to have an opponent option of having the breaker rebreak or the opponent excepts the table as is.
In this case the breaker stopped the cb, so I would say, just -1pt. and then he rebreaks.
Now if you are going by WPA rules then it is an unsportsmanlike act and the penalty is determined by the referee. If you guys said before the match we are playing by WPA rules, then I could see how an additional penalty could be administered. Because, the miscued cb possibly could have contacted the rack giving the opponent a favorable leave, or could of ended up whereas the opponent's next shot could be very favorable.
But he stopped the cb, so because of the above reasoning an additional -1 pt. would then be fair. He now is down -2pts. under WPA rules, and re-breaks!

Yes, I agree the game starts when the cb is struck, anyone that does not know this better get their stuff together before they play for the cash, this is not kiddy land. If you do not know the rules then 'you' are the reason for the argument!

The penalty for not contacting the rack or stopping the cb could never be loss of break, for if you playing alternate break then that would mean the non-offending player would now have broke three games in a row! Whitey
 
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Bob Jewett

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... The penalty for not contacting the rack or stopping the cb could never be loss of break, for if you playing alternate break then that would mean the non-offending player would now have broke three games in a row! Whitey
Well, yes, but if it's in a tournament and you have a ref he might decide that rather than punish the ball grabber by forfeiting a game he will just lose the break for that rack. Catching the cue ball on a flubbed break is a beginner's move. In my view it shows a lack of respect for the game and the rules.
 

sneakynito

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Well, yes, but if it's in a tournament and you have a ref he might decide that rather than punish the ball grabber by forfeiting a game he will just lose the break for that rack. Catching the cue ball on a flubbed break is a beginner's move. In my view it shows a lack of respect for the game and the rules.
May also just be confusion on conflicting rules, too.
In APA the rack must be struck for the game to be begin.
 

Scrzbill

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Catching the cue ball on a flubbed break is a beginner's move. In my view it shows a lack of respect for the game and the rules.
Bob you have nailed me again. I admit I have grabbed the cue ball when breaking, but only in rotation games.
Miscueing in One Pocket is hard to do and that in itself is a show of disrespect for ones ability.
 

jtompilot

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The player in question is a former top Local player that’s been playing 1P almost as long as our Ghost
 

jtompilot

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Jim, You know the correct answer. BUT, who are you playing ? If the opponent miscues breaking 1-pkt, he probably is getting spotted or is the weaker player, my guess.

I would let him shoot again and let it go. Normally, that is what happens 95% of the time anyway, in your friendly, daily $10, 20, 50 games.

If you are in a tournament, or gambling high, then you become a stickler of the rules. By the way, I did not look up the rule, this is my opinion.:confused:
It was not a friendly game.

So if we’re playing and I see I’m going to miss the head ball you’ll let me stop it with my stick and try again:lol
 

beatle

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i dont know the answer but i know the guys that stay in good winning action dont use rules to get advantages in the game.

whitey is a great guy it seems but i wouldnt play him ever as he is a stickler with the rules. and never also play someone like nick varner as he sends the game up table and it takes all day. and a few here that dont ever walk up and shoot.

the negative things that you do that your opponent doesnt like determines how much money you win ultimately.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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i dont know the answer but i know the guys that stay in good winning action dont use rules to get advantages in the game.

whitey is a great guy it seems but i wouldnt play him ever as he is a stickler with the rules. and never also play someone like nick varner as he sends the game up table and it takes all day. and a few here that dont ever walk up and shoot.

the negative things that you do that your opponent doesnt like determines how much money you win ultimately.
No, you got me pinned wrong in this case, for I am no tourney player, never did! In action the WPA rules get thrown out the window, they do not mean a thing. Players know the basic rules. If the action is good, I'd would not say a word to him, and let him re-break.
Since I know the break rule, I might say; "you owe one for not making a legal break", but if he then said; "a game can not start until the rack is broke", I'd say; "ok, lets go". But if he is a jerk, I probably should not be playing him anyway.
I am a stickler if a guy illegally pushes through a ball, I definitely would call that! But when you call a foul, all the guy has to do is say; "I did not foul".

In our little town Monday night BCA I called a double hit foul on a guy last night for I heard the distinct and loud double click, he hit it softly with about 1" gap and the cb followed right after the ob, no way with that stroke could the cb follow that far, plus the ob got extra speed on it when it got hit twice, and thus went way past his intended safe. So he got belligerent and was yelling, "I do not cheat, I am offended by your call, I would call a foul on myself, and so on". I go ok no foul, then I banked the 8 in. My captain told him that I have the right to question the hit, and he came up to me an apologized afterward. But man did he get mad! It is lucky that I did not get mad for I really did not care that much. Whitey
 
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El Chapo

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That should be straight up loss of game. What we actually do is another matter.

Striking cueball, then intentionally guiding the cb after it has been struck. Loss of game 100%.
 

youngstownkid

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Another rules question

I would say it’s a foul and my break. When you’re gambling one pocket you don’t play APA rules. I might let him break again if he agrees to take a foul...then ultimately I’d let it go altogether because I just want to play the frickin’ game, man...
 

beatle

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way back in nine ball as it never comes up in one pocket if you miscue on the break or move the cueball, no one calls it unless the rack is touched. you just break again. it works for both sides so whats the difference.
the only loss of game was when you gave up or he makes the winning ball.
taking your stick apart doesnt mean anything but you took your stick apart.
 

J.R.

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Jim asked a simple question, "Does a one pocket game begin when the cue ball is struck or when the rack is struck?" It seems there are differing opinions from the responding seasoned members of onepocket.org.

The game begins when the breaker strikes the cue ball. This is common sense! This should always be a House Rule. The breaker is -1 and the incoming player has the next shot from wherever the cue ball stops.

Additionally, it would seem very unreasonable that the breaker should be penalized an additional point or lose the game for "purposely" stopping the cue ball with his stick on the break. Should the breaker "purposely" stop the cue ball with his stick (or hand) after a miscue on the break then the breaker is -1 for the miscue and the incoming player has the next shot with cue ball in-hand behind the kitchen because the breaker "purposely" impeded the direction of the cue ball with his stick (or hand).
 
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El Chapo

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Let's look at this as if it were a game for 1 million, that way we can figure it out without the cloudy "well it was just a $20 game between friends" stuff.

Good rules need to punish shooters, otherwise, they will just continue to do the stuff (as we see here by the way).

Of course a game starts when the cueball is struck for the first time. I think we can all agree on that. Maybe not :heh

The game has now started, the cueball is in motion! And a player, does not really matter which one to be honest, stops/grabs the cueball, which could have resulted in any number advantageous or disadvantageous results for incoming player. We will never know, but that is exactly why you simply cannot do it, and why the rules need to punish the behavior to the maximum.

This is insanity. This is loss of game full stop. Who the **** cares what the hell the rules say. If you can come up with a different argument for our million dollar game hypothetical here, I am all ears. But truth be told anyone who grabs a cb while in motion in a game of one pocket... should lose the game.
 

El Chapo

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Another note on this topic that has always fascinated me, we tend to have this innate need for a game of pool to start "properly".

I know i have had opponents miscue breaks many times in nine ball tournaments. I simply accept the foul, at least under the rules I have played by, take ball in hand, and try to win the game the best i can from there (probably by three fouls).

I just see no need for games to begin "properly" as some seem to. I have always found this fascinating too; why do people just want to see and play the same exact type of games over and over? A game with a miscue break can and probably will be very interesting if played out in my estimation.
 

El Chapo

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Another thing to think about here is what if the seated player essentially did the same thing, and grabbed the cb as it was on its way to hit the rack. Would this not be loss of game? Or how would you handle that? Seems he is committing the same level of offense in my estimation.
 

lll

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this is from the WPA pool rules definitions
8.11 Break
A break shot is the opening shot of a match or rack, depending on the game. It happens when
the object balls have been racked and the cue ball is played from behind the head string
usually with the intent of breaking the rack apart.

the definition above doesnt say anything about the cue ball hitting the rack....
so
when you strike the cue ball from behind the string with the intent of breaking the rack apart the game begins
so
the miscue is a foul
stopping the cue ball in flight to me is loss of game from unsportsman like behavior
thats my interpretation of the rules
i think gambling you do whatever you both agree to........:)
what would happen if in the middle of the game your opponent mis cued and stopped the cue ball before it could hit any balls????
 

bobt64

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I play one guy who will occasionally try to break and ends up trapping the ball with the cue, obviously a foul. I just let him go ahead and try again. Just a non-gambling game so it really is no big deal. If money was involved it could be an issue.
 
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