DCC 45 degree rule; a better way?

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Stack Stroking / Tapping Rule; when the cue ball is frozen to or in close proximity to the object ball within or next to the stack, then it is required to be stroked / tapped on a 45 degree angle or more to the object ball, or it is a foul with the opponent’s option to restore the balls.
Note; this OP game rule supersedes the general rule " Elevated 45 degree Rule". in stack play.

I'd like to see DCC add this OP game rule. The intent is to stymie the use of an illegal stroke to trap the cue ball / object ball within the stack, of which their elevated 45 degree cue rule promotes.

When there is separation between the cue ball and object ball it becomes an illegally stroked shot when the cue tip, cue ball, and object ball are all in contact with each other. This is my explanation of a push shot, not written in any rules.

When the cue ball is frozen to the object ball it is an illegal stroke to lay the cue tip upon the cue ball and then stroke through. DCC has this rule.
Whitey

 

[Island Drive]

Here's the WPA rule.

1.4 Spotting Balls

Balls are spotted (returned to play on the table) by placing them on the long string (long axis of the table) as close as possible to the foot spot and between the foot spot and the foot rail, without moving any interfering ball. If the spotted ball cannot be placed on the foot spot, it should be placed in contact (if possible) with the corresponding interfering ball. However, when the cue ball is next to the spotted ball, the spotted ball should not be placed in contact with the cue ball; a small separation must be maintained. If all of the long string below the foot spot is blocked by other balls, the ball is spotted above the foot spot, and as close as possible to the foot spot.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Here's the WPA rule.

1.4 Spotting Balls

Balls are spotted (returned to play on the table) by placing them on the long string (long axis of the table) as close as possible to the foot spot and between the foot spot and the foot rail, without moving any interfering ball. If the spotted ball cannot be placed on the foot spot, it should be placed in contact (if possible) with the corresponding interfering ball. However, when the cue ball is next to the spotted ball, the spotted ball should not be placed in contact with the cue ball; a small separation must be maintained. If all of the long string below the foot spot is blocked by other balls, the ball is spotted above the foot spot, and as close as possible to the foot spot.

Thanks for posting on my thread. I am trying to figure out, and threading it for our members to discuss how to negate DCC Elevated Cue @ 45 degree angle rule, because their rule promotes the use of an illegal stroke to trap the cue ball / object ball within the stack. Which is absolutely not how we want to see OP played.
Whitey

 

[NH Steve]

Our current onepocket.org rules address this, and it was part of the rules we reviewed at the player meeting for our recent MOT. It being a player meeting, we agreed that the opponent would have the option of BIH if this happened (i.e. the player meeting was used to issue a "warning", meaning if it happened just once, it was a second level serious foul.)

6.6.1 Use of an illegal technique: However, if the shooter employs an illegal technique to their advantage, such as pushing, intentionally double-hitting, use of anything other than the cue tip to shoot, or an illegal prolonged cue contact to wedge/trap, direct or redirect the cue ball or any object balls, such as within the stack or jawed pocket, these acts are considered serious fouls. The offending player may be penalized for a serious foul under the general rules of unsportsmanlike conduct. ref: 6.6.2 Serious fouls​

​

6.6.2 Serious fouls: If the ruling is that a serious foul has occurred, in addition to the standard foul the official may further penalize a player at their discretion. If there is no official available, players will need to come to agreement themselves as to the level of penalty to assess the shooter. If it is possible to restore the balls, then the foul may be penalized (a) as a standard foul, with opponent’s option of restoration.​

The following penalty levels progress from (a) through (c) depending on the seriousness of the offense, and whether the shooter has been issued a prior warning. A prior warning warrants an escalation of penalty. In this context a “prior warning” may mean a prior offense, a pre-tournament announcement or a player agreement prior to a match.​

​

(a) Assess a standard foul penalty, and a warning to the shooter.​

(b) Assess a standard foul penalty, and opponent receives the option of ball in hand.​

(c) Loss of game.​

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Steve, thanks for joining into the discussion. We have had many discussions on DCC Elevated 45 degree rule, and the conclusion is we all hate it for many obvious reasons. As you related to me in a conversation you had with Greg Sullivan when he asked you handle close proximity shots, and you stated we suggest shooting on an angle.
Below in 6.8 you finalize this with a advisory comment to shoot on an angle. The sentence starting with Alternatively.
The final sentence; A ball declared frozen to the cue ball may be legally stroked through. Note; it is a DCC rule; it is illegal to lay the cue tip against the cue ball and then stroke forward, a push shot foul. Sounds familiar to tapping directly towards the ob.
That is where I am going with this for stack play, shoot / tap on an angle of 45 degree or greater on close proximity shots to avoid illegally pushing the cb / ob into the stack.
OP.org
6.8 Close proximity shots — foul criteria: Close proximity shots often come up in One Pocket with no referee available. When stroking towards a ball in close proximity to the cue ball, a double hit foul is indicated when the cue ball is driven immediately forward through the contact point, or immediately forward through the carom tangent line, without first exhibiting the pause and accelerate action of legal follow or draw. This foul criteria applies whether stroking with an elevated cue or not. With advanced skill, it is possible to play close proximity shots without committing these common double hit fouls. Alternatively, players may agree that shooting away at a sufficiently thin angle reasonably avoids a
double hit. A ball declared frozen to the cue ball may be legally stroked through.

As Crabcatjohn pointed out in viewing a OP tournament from Hard Times, Sac. and stated; "are they still pushing the ob / cb into the stack out there".

OP.org members are the most knowledgeable authority on OP. So how can OP.org reach out to DCC with this alternative rule to help DCC negate the 45 degree rule.

Who talks to them, and whom do we reach out to for getting some results. Possibly I am the only one that really cares enough to try and follow through on this, but whom do I reach out to in DCC that can understand and get this accomplished? And what backing do I have within OP.org?

Here is the rule again, as I see it for DCC.
Stack Stroking / Tapping Rule; when the cue ball is frozen to or is in close proximity to the object ball within or next to the stack, then it is required to be stroked / tapped on a 45 degree angle or more to the object ball, or it is a foul with the opponent’s option to restore the balls.
Note; this OP game rule supersedes the general rule " Elevated 45 degree Rule". in stack play.
Whitey

 

[NH Steve]

It is interesting, prior to our original 2004 onepocket.org rules (and their subsequent influence on all other versions of One Pocket rules), there were a few cheap illegal shenanigans that cagey players employed at times -- and whether those players were considered cheaters or smart players kind of came down to who was involved and which side you were on. The biggest single influence our rules have had on the game might be to create a more level "sportsmanship" oriented playing field, IMHO.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

It is interesting, prior to our original 2004 onepocket.org rules (and their subsequent influence on all other versions of One Pocket rules), there were a few cheap illegal shenanigans that cagey players employed at times -- and whether those players were considered cheaters or smart players kind of came down to who was involved and which side you were on. The biggest single influence our rules have had on the game might be to create a more level "sportsmanship" oriented playing field, IMHO.

Yes, with each individual game rule writing they can be exploited either by loop holes in the rule writing or by self determining what a poorly written rule means. Double hit for instance as this is on the subject. Double hit as portrayed by rule governing authority; It is a foul to double hit. As you can see there is no explanation for what constitutes a double hit foul criteria. So if i double hit, and my opponent calls a foul, then I say show me the rule that explains the criteria for a double hit.
But,
As you so wisely adopted my Close Proximity Foul Criteria, and put it into your own words, then we a have what constitutes a double hit foul. This rule is the only rule by an organized rule authority that gets rules out of the stone age and into the 21st century. I have developed a number of these type of criteria rules and definitions.

DCC 45 degree rule is a slap in the face of those that appreciate the skill level it takes to play the game of OP. The only way to offset this is to offer up a better alternative. But whom in DCC has the knowledge to understand and the clout to do something?
Whitey

 

[baby huey]

There's more. Suppose I ask for the cueball to be cleaned? And, the re-spotted cueball is now in a different location then prior to the cleaning? Maybe the gap is larger or maybe smaller between the object ball and cueball. My point being, sometimes the rules cannot be empirical as the variances that can and do occur can create problems. I once saw a MLB game where a ball was called fair after hitting the chaulk line. The instant replay revealed that the line had been disturbed by players foot traffic such that it moved some into foul territory.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

There's more. Suppose I ask for the cueball to be cleaned? And, the re-spotted cueball is now in a different location then prior to the cleaning? Maybe the gap is larger or maybe smaller between the object ball and cueball. My point being, sometimes the rules cannot be empirical as the variances that can and do occur can create problems. I once saw a MLB game where a ball was called fair after hitting the chaulk line. The instant replay revealed that the line had been disturbed by players foot traffic such that it moved some into foul territory.

I think your post relates to Steve's as to whether a player cheats or is smart. We all know that players ask for the ball to be cleaned if there is little to none clearance to go to their next ball. Similar, is to use hand pressure upon the cloth towards the cb to cause it to move slightly for clearance for your next shot.
Cleaning the balls, yes, I have wrote a rule for this, and it does not allow the balls to be cleaned when there is tight clearance to the players next ball.

But for this discussion players know if they illegally push through a shot at the level we play at.

My greatest concern as far as playing in a OP.org MOT is someone illegally pushing an ob / cb into and within the stack, and having to call a foul on them. Steve stated they addressed this at the last MOT, so someone had this concern also.
Whitey

 

[Island Drive]

In soccer fouls, they utilize a two-step process.
One warning, next time your gone.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

I think your post relates to Steve's as to whether a player cheats or is smart. We all know that players ask for the ball to be cleaned if there is little to none clearance to go to their next ball. Similar, is to use hand pressure upon the cloth towards the cb to cause it to move slightly for clearance for your next shot.
Cleaning the balls, yes, I have wrote a rule for this, and it does not allow the balls to be cleaned when there is tight clearance to the players next ball.

But for this discussion players know if they illegally push through a shot at the level we play at.

My greatest concern as far as playing in a OP.org MOT is someone illegally pushing an ob / cb into and within the stack, and having to call a foul on them. Steve stated they addressed this at the last MOT, so someone had this concern also.
Whitey

You call a ref or well known member to look at it. In Louisville we discussed the rules in depth at the players meeting while johnnytronic provided the visual demonstration at the TV table with balls. 45 degree rule, corner trapping and stack trapping were shown and discussed.. Everybody watched.. We didnt have any problems that I know of. Unless they are green most players at a MOT I don’t worry about shooting a illegal shot.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

You call a ref or well known member to look at it. In Louisville we discussed the rules in depth at the players meeting while johnnytronic provided the visual demonstration at the TV table with balls. 45 degree rule, corner trapping and stack trapping were shown and discussed.. Everybody watched.. We didnt have any problems that I know of. Unless they are green most players at a MOT I don’t worry about shooting a illegal shot.

John, you did a fabulous job TD-ing the MOT!
I believe it was Johnnytronic that previous to the MOT threaded the 6.6.2 Serious Foul, and asking and seeking explanations, so he had an interest in nailing this down. The serious foul rule is what I call an umbrella rule for it encompasses 3 other OP Official rules. Meaning those other rules are not complete as written and you have to find the answer with 6.6.2.
Just excellent that you went over the rules in that manner of actually portraying the scenarios on the table.

Back to the point of DCC, it is a harder sell to stroke or tap close proximity shots on an angle to the object ball for them, because DCC has never in the first place recognized the trapping of the cb / ob within the stack as an illegal maneuver. BCAPL never recognized it, therefore DCC never did.

Thanks for putting on a great MOT tournament, I really enjoyed viewing the matches. Great Playing Guys!
Whitey