9-Ball "Pattern Racking"

[tylerdurden]

I just finished watching the Shaw Orcollo finals at hard times. I'll just state my opinion on this and try to back it up after any responses.

The gist is, once a tournament decides on a format, be it rack your own, 10-ball, 9-ball, the "order" (or lack thereof) that the balls are placed in the rack it really needs to be a non-issue after that. What I mean is, if players are complaining, it needs to be curtailed in fairness to all. It just seems there is not much to discuss once the rules are in place. Non-racking players need to be in their chairs and not unfairly impeding in any way the current shooters racking and breaking.

So there is no confusion, the Shaw final with Orcollo went EXACTLY as I would have hoped, which is why I brought it up. I love to see this. Shaw didn't complain, there were no problems and that is the way it should be. If a player is running racks, there is really no "unfairness" as far as I am concerned. Each player has that same opportunity; it isn't any more unfair than a straight pool match imo where one guy can put a big run together. If you want to run a tournament where both players get more of a chance, that is fine of course, but once set I really feel TD's need to just make sure things run smoothly and temper the whiners. There just seems to be a certain sect of players out there that go willingly into rack your own tournaments that complain about people playing good pool on them. They think they are somehow entitled to shoot. I have no idea where this frame of mind comes from, but i'd love to see it curtailed. I think it is an important point and one that needs addressing. The irony is of course, the worst whining comes when a player is doing what we all want to do, what he is supposed to do, and what we all want to see, that is, playing good.

One last note.... I think good players of course have the ability to tune out anything unfair their opponent may be doing, but that isn't really the point I'm addressing. I am talking more about people who stall and whine and complain when their opponent is simply following the guidelines of a tournament.

 

[oldspurguy]

I agree with your points. My comment is that while I like to watch great players run racks, I don't like to see the same rack run over and over 6 times in a row. What I mean is that Orcullo, by racking the balls the same each time, was able to break the balls in a very similar fashion each time resulting in a very similar layout each time. Sure, that takes a lot of skill, but I don't want to see the same rack run 6 times in a row.

This is a long way of saying I don't like pattern racking, and I also don't really like rack your own, if there is a possibility of gaining an edge by doing so. I agree with the OP's point that if those are the rules of the tournament, then everyone should live with them without complaint. I like to see people run multiple racks, so I like winner breaks, but without the 'rigged up' racking.

 

[stevelomako]

For the people that complain about "pattern racking".

For every good pattern there is a bad one also...why dont "they" just require a bad one to be racked at all times. Tell everyone the order the balls go and let them have at it.


Last I looked, no one has won 20-30 tournaments in a row, its still a lot of different good players winning the tournaments. Always has been, always will.

 

[tylerdurden]

I agree with your points. My comment is that while I like to watch great players run racks, I don't like to see the same rack run over and over 6 times in a row. What I mean is that Orcullo, by racking the balls the same each time, was able to break the balls in a very similar fashion each time resulting in a very similar layout each time. Sure, that takes a lot of skill, but I don't want to see the same rack run 6 times in a row.

This is a long way of saying I don't like pattern racking, and I also don't really like rack your own, if there is a possibility of gaining an edge by doing so. I agree with the OP's point that if those are the rules of the tournament, then everyone should live with them without complaint. I like to see people run multiple racks, so I like winner breaks, but without the 'rigged up' racking.

Yes, and I know what you are saying.

My only response to what you have said is if you think a player is pattern racking, I don't think anybody should hold that against him. It is really the tournament's decision and I think players many times get a bad rap for no reason at all. The rules on this matter need a little changing as they are not clear enough. What is a "pattern" would be the question; impossible to answer that (=bad rule). In short, have clear rules, and place any blame when it comes to this stuff on tournament officials (not that you were asking ). But I think that is what you were saying anyway

Here is an interesting sidenote. I have played in hard times tournaments before. They play rack your own, and "two goes in the back". Now, I have NO idea who came up with that rule, but they are compelling players to put the 2 in the back, which is one of the best spots if you are breaking soft and know what you are doing. So go figure

 

[tylerdurden]

For the people that complain about "pattern racking".

For every good pattern there is a bad one also...why dont "they" just require a bad one to be racked at all times. Tell everyone the order the balls go and let them have at it.


Last I looked, no one has won 20-30 tournaments in a row, its still a lot of different good players winning the tournaments. Always has been, always will.

That is definitely an option. The one thing I would say is you'd have to stop the "he broke an illegally ordered rack" arguments by stipulating that the player in the chair had to make sure the rack is ok before the breaking player takes a swing at it. Something like that.

 

[Dudley]

9-ball racks are easily manipulated. For this reason 10-ball is a better game.

If a top pro isn't making a ball on the break a huge majority of the time the table must be racking poorly or the balls are different sizes preventing a tight rack.

I also have no issue with pattern racking-> it is what it is. If a guy can string racks together he should win the set. If 9-ball has become too easy switch to 10-ball... It is way tougher to make a ball on the break.

Dud

 

[vapros]

While on the subject of racking, what about the Magic Rack that was in use this weekend in Hard Times? It looks to me like a definite change in the game of 9 ball. I think the slick surface has a big effect on the break, and also on other shots when for some reason it cannot be picked up right after the break. As I noted on cmbwsu's thread, I don't see that it offers anything over racking by hand on a straight line behind the foot spot.

 

[tylerdurden]

While on the subject of racking, what about the Magic Rack that was in use this weekend in Hard Times? It looks to me like a definite change in the game of 9 ball. I think the slick surface has a big effect on the break, and also on other shots when for some reason it cannot be picked up right after the break. As I noted on cmbwsu's thread, I don't see that it offers anything over racking by hand on a straight line behind the foot spot.

I haven't used the magic rack yet, as I stopped playing I believe before it got popular. I'm not even sure about the theory behind it, or how it works. From what I can see though, it looks like it is just big enough to hold the balls in, thus freezing them together. I'm sure the change in direction on the break caused by the balls sliding over the thin material is minimal. On other shots i'd certainly agree it could really change the amount of spin a ball has. I personally like the idea a lot.

I will say I am SO glad that monstrosity Sardo rack is not being used as much. I seriously hated that thing. I was compelled to use it in a couple of tournaments and I was so close to just asking them if I could use a normal damn rack.

 

[backplaying]

Does anyone know the pattern Orcullo was racking them in? With the magic rack, the wing ball almost becomes automatic to where they are just concerned with shape on the 1.

 

[petie]

Bucky Bell and I drove down to Atlanta in the late '80s to play in the Atlanta Open, a bar box 9-ball event hosted by Boxcar John. We drove through a blizzard in Tennessee to get there. Of course we drew each other in the mini the night we got there. We could play each other any day we wanted to at home so we were slightly disappointed with this turn of events. Anyway, later in the tournament Buddy Hall, the eventual winner, was playing the local short stop, a scuff named Jeff. Jeff had played all night 10 ahead with Tall Paul from Peru, IN (aka Peru Paul.) Paul had started getting the edge by that morning and Jeff went to his car to retreive his heater just in case there would be trouble when Paul discovered Jeff was on his last air barrell. Thank God Jeff scraped back to even and they agreed to quit.

Well in the tournament Jeff was slug-racking Buddy something awefull and Buddy knew it but thought he could overcome it with his monster break and runnout capability. After seveal racks where Buddy was lucky to make a ball to a rail, he said as only he could say, "Damn, Jeff, at least sew one of them." Everyone howled with laughter. I was thinking of Shelly Burman's famous comedic quandry, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

 

[tylerdurden]

Does anyone know the pattern Orcullo was racking them in? With the magic rack, the wing ball almost becomes automatic to where they are just concerned with shape on the 1.

he had the 2 in the back (which MAY have been a requirement for that tournament, not sure?), the 8 in the corner ball position, the 3 in the front opposite side from where he was breaking. he did get a 6 9 combo at one point so id be about 98% sure the 6 was in the front opposite the 3. the other balls i could take guesses based on the layouts he was getting, but maybe we can get a screenshot of the match that would be better than me guessing.

 

[Fatboy]

Denis played so good the pockets looked like they were 8" wide, other than a slug rack he was going to win, can he give himself more of a edge with a pattern rack? sure anyone willing to learn, listen and put in the time has the same opportunity to pattern rack. I can promis you this the greatest pattern racker in the world couldnt beat Denis that day, he is playing better at the moment than anyone i'm aware of, perhaps in Asia there is someone else playing his speed, but not here. IMO speed beats "pattern racking" all day everyday.

 

[tylerdurden]

Denis played so good the pockets looked like they were 8" wide, other than a slug rack he was going to win, can he give himself more of a edge with a pattern rack? sure anyone willing to learn, listen and put in the time has the same opportunity to pattern rack. I can promis you this the greatest pattern racker in the world couldnt beat Denis that day, he is playing better at the moment than anyone i'm aware of, perhaps in Asia there is someone else playing his speed, but not here. IMO speed beats "pattern racking" all day everyday.

9-ball with rack your own format has become the game that there could be the easiest upsets out of any game i can think of in the world.

What I saw was a race to 11 on tight pockets, so in that way I do agree with you. But, if there were money in pool, I bet we'd see a ton of players who would get mentally tough enough to bring down Orcollos because it just would not be that hard. I'll tell you right now, I know for a fact that a strong shortstop who knows how to pattern rack and knows how to break on a table he is already familiar with can put "unreasonable" packages together with such ease.... we are talking easily running 8 or 9 out of 10 racks.... of course slightly less if he isn't controlling the 1 and the cb well. What is orcollo going to do getting out of the chair down 5 zip? He'll play well, and things still favor him in the long run I agree, but not nearly as much as they should.

9-ball reminds me of a situation like you could have possibly had hundreds of years ago. Perhaps there was an ancient tribe out in the hills that trained their soldiers with swords and in battle better than any in the world. Soldiers willing to die for their cause and with every capability to defend it. Then along comes a group of dudes with some guns. Bam... the battle is over, and the relatively unskilled are victorious. Again, the only reason we dont see it happening more is I feel players in pool are mentally very very weak when it comes to dealing with these top guys - I have seen it over and over and have no doubt about this.

 

[backplaying]

Denis played so good the pockets looked like they were 8" wide, other than a slug rack he was going to win, can he give himself more of a edge with a pattern rack? sure anyone willing to learn, listen and put in the time has the same opportunity to pattern rack. I can promis you this the greatest pattern racker in the world couldnt beat Denis that day, he is playing better at the moment than anyone i'm aware of, perhaps in Asia there is someone else playing his speed, but not here. IMO speed beats "pattern racking" all day everyday.

Have you watched the tar match with Shane and Donnie Mills. This match will show you how strong pattern racking can be. I also know a player thats not top 15 that will play the ghost, no ball in hand, pattern racking with the magic rack. I've seen him play it three times and win twice. When you put the 2 and 3 behind the 1 and get the speed down on the break the 2 is by one side and the 3 by the other side. Wingball can be the 5 with the 4 on the opposite side of the 3, 6,7 and 8 on the tail. Using a magic rack on a good table with 4 1 /2" pockets I think you would see a top player running 15 racks or more in no time. Of course since tourny matches aren't that long it would need to be a gambling match. I saw a good A player run 11 on a barbox at a tourny last year at High pockets pattern racking and magic rack..

 

[backplaying]

9-ball with rack your own format has become the game that there could be the easiest upsets out of any game i can think of in the world.

What I saw was a race to 11 on tight pockets, so in that way I do agree with you. But, if there were money in pool, I bet we'd see a ton of players who would get mentally tough enough to bring down Orcollos because it just would not be that hard. I'll tell you right now, I know for a fact that a strong shortstop who knows how to pattern rack and knows how to break on a table he is already familiar with can put "unreasonable" packages together with such ease.... we are talking easily running 8 or 9 out of 10 racks.... of course slightly less if he isn't controlling the 1 and the cb well. What is orcollo going to do getting out of the chair down 5 zip? He'll play well, and things still favor him in the long run I agree, but not nearly as much as they should.

9-ball reminds me of a situation like you could have possibly had hundreds of years ago. Perhaps there was an ancient tribe out in the hills that trained their soldiers with swords and in battle better than any in the world. Soldiers willing to die for their cause and with every capability to defend it. Then along comes a group of dudes with some guns. Bam... the battle is over, and the relatively unskilled are victorious. Again, the only reason we dont see it happening more is I feel players in pool are mentally very very weak when it comes to dealing with these top guys - I have seen it over and over and have no doubt about this.

Yep, some of the best pool I've ever seen was from good shortstops not top pro's, but they wern't playing a pro was the difference. Many people considered Paul Turner a shortstop but I have seen him bust up 10 ball ring games with all top players in it. He once ran 10 racks in a 10 ball ring game with nothing but champions in it, but I considered him a top barbox player myself. The best one pocket I've witnessed was from a player that wouldn't make the top 30.

 

[tylerdurden]

Have you watched the tar match with Shane and Donnie Mills. This match will show you how strong pattern racking can be. I also know a player thats not top 15 that will play the ghost, no ball in hand, pattern racking with the magic rack. I've seen him play it three times and win twice. When you put the 2 and 3 behind the 1 and get the speed down on the break the 2 is by one side and the 3 by the other side. Wingball can be the 5 with the 4 on the opposite side of the 3, 6,7 and 8 on the tail. Using a magic rack on a good table with 4 1 /2" pockets I think you would see a top player running 15 racks or more in no time. Of course since tourny matches aren't that long it would need to be a gambling match. I saw a good A player run 11 on a barbox at a tourny last year at High pockets pattern racking and magic rack..

Yeah, this is a game you can make money with now... it will soon be known, if not already. Like I said before, I know for a fact there are strong shortstops that can beat the ghost no ball in hand if they know a little about how the table is breaking, and with the magic rack. Not stealing of course, but definitely doable.

 

[onepocket926]

For the people that complain about "pattern racking".

For every good pattern there is a bad one also...why dont "they" just require a bad one to be racked at all times. Tell everyone the order the balls go and let them have at it.


Last I looked, no one has won 20-30 tournaments in a row, its still a lot of different good players winning the tournaments. Always has been, always will.

...I like your solution.....but, might I suggest.....1 at the head, the 9 or 10 in the middle (depending on the game).....and shake the peas for the corner balls......

....I once watched a player rack Onepocket with all the stripes on one side of the rack (towards his pocket)...claiming it was easier for Him to see the contact point of the object balls...with a stripe to reference by......

...it was the ugliest rack I've ever seen.....

.....since then, I make it a practice to alternate the balls on the perimeter of the rack...just in case He was right......and still I get accused of pattern racking....:lol...I also always call tails....just so I never get confused as to what I called (I'll argue till the cows come home that I called tails)....

 

[u12armresl]

Any particular reason you are bumping numerous year old + threads?

This thread is even about 9 ball...

...I like your solution.....but, might I suggest.....1 at the head, the 9 or 10 in the middle (depending on the game).....and shake the peas for the corner balls......

....I once watched a player rack Onepocket with all the stripes on one side of the rack (towards his pocket)...claiming it was easier for Him to see the contact point of the object balls...with a stripe to reference by......

...it was the ugliest rack I've ever seen.....

.....since then, I make it a practice to alternate the balls on the perimeter of the rack...just in case He was right......and still I get accused of pattern racking....:lol...I also always call tails....just so I never get confused as to what I called (I'll argue till the cows come home that I called tails)....

 

[onepocket926]

Any particular reason you are bumping numerous year old + threads?

This thread is even about 9 ball...

...I'm not quite sure what You mean by...bumping....but, the reason I responded was....."it struck my fancy"......

.....I wasn't aware there was a....."time limit".....if so...why the Archives ?...has all that there is to say about everything in past posts...been said ?.....

......now I feel like I'm in deep Doo Doo....'cause there are many questions about Pool...that have plagued me for 40 years......and if.....I can't get the answers here....amongst some of the greatest Players...that ever graced the Table.....that only leaves...AZB.....

.....guess I'll just have to remain clueless......

......and if....Onepocket is the only subject...allowed on this Forum....You might....cc.....your sentiments.....to about....99.9 % of the other posts on here.....

.....sorry...I'll bury the past and never utter another non-Onepocket phrase on here.......

...thanks for the ..."heads-up".....

 

[mr3cushion]

Any particular reason you are bumping numerous year old + threads?

This thread is even about 9 ball...

Approximately a year and 6 months, but, who's counting! :lol:lol

Talk about coming late to the party!