Potential rules change discussion - ball on break

[lll]

I'm old school on the BOB, when it's break about, each player has his chance to make that perfect split hit on the break. It's a skill shot IMO, requiring several things to happen in order for that corner ball to pocket, most of which are caused by the skillful execution of the shot by the shooter.

I just believe that what's good for the goose should be good for the gander.
Let's keep the game real fellas, skill, luck, or the rolls, whatever you label it, under any other circumstance other than the BOB is followed by a sigh of relief or a grimace of grief, depending on the recipient thereof. It's just part of the game.

tap,,tap,,
agree 100%

 

[tylerdurden]

Boo-effing hoo. The guy makes a ball or two on the break. Ever think of playing your heart out after that, and beating the guy down and telling your buds... I beat the guy even though he made two on the break? Or, how about playing your heart out after he makes a ball or two on the break, maybe losing, and shaking the guy's hand and heading home with your head held high. These scenarios don't seem to be options for pool players. Why? That is the million dollar question, and the answer certainly is NOT to disallow balls on the break. Guys that have spent 8 hours a day in a pool hall for the last 10 years will keep you off the table sometimes, luck or not. I think the solution to some of these problems should be forfeiture if the opposing player simply will not sit down and shut the hell up as he is supposed to be doing anyway.

 

[lll]

tyler how you doin??
long time no post

 

[gulfportdoc]

The break shot is a skill shot in terms of getting the proper type of hit so that the CB gets safe, and so that as many balls as possible are moved towards one's hole. It's considered a big advantage, and the outcome of many games can be traced back to the opening break shot.

Making a ball on the break is not a skill shot, because if it were, there would be a way to predict it and practice it. A BOB is essentially luck. Luck is a part of pool, but do we want the first shot in every game to carry with it such a devastating possible lucky outcome?

Making the 8 in Eight Ball is disallowed in tournaments. Many tournaments now disallow the 9 BOB in Nine Ball under certain circumstances. In neither of these games does the ball in question BOB occur very often, yet it is disallowed. Nine Ball players practice making the 1 ball on the break. That's a skill shot; so much so that many tournaments provide for a break box, or other methods to discourage the shot.

If we want to be assured that the game thought to be the truest test of pool --the King of games-- is to remain that way, do we want to continue official endorsement of a lucky outcome to an already advantageous position?

This discussion is meant in consideration of tournament play only. Obviously private games can be played in any manner that's agreed upon between the parties.

~Doc

 

[darmoose]

I'm old school on the BOB, when it's break about, each player has his chance to make that perfect split hit on the break. It's a skill shot IMO, requiring several things to happen in order for that corner ball to pocket, most of which are caused by the skillful execution of the shot by the shooter.

I just believe that what's good for the goose should be good for the gander.
Let's keep the game real fellas, skill, luck, or the rolls, whatever you label it, under any other circumstance other than the BOB is followed by a sigh of relief or a grimace of grief, depending on the recipient thereof. It's just part of the game.

I totally agree with you on this position, Jeff. As we all know, you can't endeavor to make a perfect split hit on the first two balls without RISK of selling out or scratching. No risk no return. I take the risk, I deserve the return when it happens.

Those that would change the rules under the guise of eliminating the luck factor, I am sure would also favor calling your next ball to shoot, and calling all kisses.

I do believe that one should not be allowed to rack their own, as this at the very least, fosters a potential disagreement about manipulating the rack. If I rack for you, you have the perfect right to inspect, and you don't get to touch the balls. Yeah, I know some idiots will try to have you stand there all day playing with the rack for them, I suggest you don't play with idiots.

This is a silly discussion about changing rules for the wrong reasons, and pales when compared to previous rules discussions like trying to speed up the game IMO.

 

[androd]

So if he accidentally pockets a ball after he makes the ball on the break does the ball go on the spot and his inning is over?

Yes, sorta like playing one and safe. The lag would be available if a ball didn't come out on the opponents side.
Which it often does after making a ball.
Rod.
P.S. I agree with Darmoose, leave tourney rules alone but don't let players rack their own. Not that racking has anything to do with making a ball, but what do I know. :frus

 

[Henry]

TY2's questions re the break brings up an interesting proposition. It might be worthwhile to have a discussion about whether the 1p.o Official Rules ought to disallow a ball made on the break, and to require it to be spotted up.

The rule has started to be used in some matches and events lately, and this is understandable. The ball on the break (BOB) is not really a skill shot. It's more of an incidental gift.

The BOB is dependent on all balls being perfectly frozen (which is very difficult to achieve) and the conditions of the cloth (which is beyond control of the breaker). Granted, the player has to accomplish the perfect type of split hit to effect the shot, but should one out of three of the required elements of a BOB be sufficient to award the breaker such a tremendous advantage?

The break is already an advantage. Should a game of skill allow for a partially lucky shot to further reward the breaker? Making the 8 on the break in Eight Ball causes it to be spotted up in most official rules. And the 9 on the break in Nine Ball is oftentimes disallowed as well. Neither are skill shots.

Perhaps some of you would share your opinions.


I am not for changing the rules but I really don't care as I don't play in tournaments and when I match up we can play by any rules we want to. There is a lot of calculated luck in one pocket and some out right luck so if the goal is to eliminate luck you are going to have to change more than the BOB.

 

[Jeff sparks]

The break shot is a skill shot in terms of getting the proper type of hit so that the CB gets safe, and so that as many balls as possible are moved towards one's hole. It's considered a big advantage, and the outcome of many games can be traced back to the opening break shot.

Making a ball on the break is not a skill shot, because if it were, there would be a way to predict it and practice it. A BOB is essentially luck. Luck is a part of pool, but do we want the first shot in every game to carry with it such a devastating possible lucky outcome?

Making the 8 in Eight Ball is disallowed in tournaments. Many tournaments now disallow the 9 BOB in Nine Ball under certain circumstances. In neither of these games does the ball in question BOB occur very often, yet it is disallowed. Nine Ball players practice making the 1 ball on the break. That's a skill shot; so much so that many tournaments provide for a break box, or other methods to discourage the shot.

If we want to be assured that the game thought to be the truest test of pool --the King of games-- is to remain that way, do we want to continue official endorsement of a lucky outcome to an already advantageous position?

This discussion is meant in consideration of tournament play only. Obviously private games can be played in any manner that's agreed upon between the parties.

~Doc

Ok Doc,

I agree that making a BOB is not a skill shot. However, I do consider it to be one of the better results of performing a skillful shot. Some players break very well, while others are so-so, the so-so players have very little chance of making a BOB, should we reward the weaker players and penalize the better players with a rules change?

Or should the weaker players practice their break shot more often and become more skillful at hitting it properly, thereby enabling them to get lucky on a more frequent basis?

Dunno Doc, if we are going to call our game "The Chess Game of all Pool Games" or "The King of All Pool Games" we might think twice about dis-allowing
a result which comes about from a practiced and skillful performance by a player.

One pocket is such a great game, and IMO, it is the undisputed "KING" of all pool games.

If I make one anytime, I'm shooting again, unless I'm playing somebody ONE AND STOP!

 

[baby huey]

Every time someone manages to figure out how to rack and break balls we want to take that skill away from them and penalize them(I believe it is a skill). We did it to Corey Duell and to Johnny Archer and now to a very few skilled one pocket rackers and breakers. This is like Taxi Cab Companies complaining about Lyft and Uber moving into their territories and doing a better job. I attempt to make a ball on the break every time its my opportunity to do so. I expect nothing less from my opponent. We could always go to racking for our opponent again and try to withstand the constant complaining and re-racking.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

In case it's not clear where I stand on this subject...

I'm old school also, and I'm not in favor of any rule changes to One Pocket...the bob rule change I related in this thread, was only for use if a player or a tournament insisted on a change....the times that I've used my bob rule change, is just with one guy that I gamble with, who won't play anybody unless they agree to in some way, adjust the game to negate the bob.

- Ghost

 

[sappo]

TY2's questions re the break brings up an interesting proposition. It might be worthwhile to have a discussion about whether the 1p.o Official Rules ought to disallow a ball made on the break, and to require it to be spotted up.

The rule has started to be used in some matches and events lately, and this is understandable. The ball on the break (BOB) is not really a skill shot. It's more of an incidental gift.

The BOB is dependent on all balls being perfectly frozen (which is very difficult to achieve) and the conditions of the cloth (which is beyond control of the breaker). Granted, the player has to accomplish the perfect type of split hit to effect the shot, but should one out of three of the required elements of a BOB be sufficient to award the breaker such a tremendous advantage?

The break is already an advantage. Should a game of skill allow for a partially lucky shot to further reward the breaker? Making the 8 on the break in Eight Ball causes it to be spotted up in most official rules. And the 9 on the break in Nine Ball is oftentimes disallowed as well. Neither are skill shots.

Perhaps some of you would share your opinions.

~Doc

Doc, I think a ball made on the break should count. Players should rack their own balls so the get a perfect rack and if they hit the balls perfectly they should be rewarded. As far as luck is concerned, well there is a tremendous amount of luck in all aspects of one pocket. Good rolls and bad rolls occur all the time. If we wanted to reduce luck in the game then we could consider having to call the ball we intend to pocket. But I would surely be opposed to that change also.
So thats my opinion on your question. keith

 

[beatle]

Let's also eliminate all possible luck by calling all shots and kisses as well. Soon we can make the game like chess where the best player wins everytime. Since its almost like that already.

That's part of the reason pool is dying out. The rules keep making it tougher to play and win. That is why poker is booming.

 

[phil dade]

It seems to me that there are guys who can make a BOB more frequently than others. Not me. However, I never practiced the break as much as I should have because it took so much time. I do not have anyone to rack for me, but I often thought of paying someone to do so.

So, if some guys can do it more often, it has to be a result of a techique they have developed. As long as they are not cheating the rack, despite adding to the advantage in general of break, do we really want to penalize a player for a skill he developed that coupled with a little luck produces, to use a golf analogy, the 1P "hole in one"? Ever make a 35 foot double break downhill put? Feels good, great judgement, you were trying and hit it just right....but alot of luck.

I think BOB should count for the reasons above.

 

[darmoose]

Whether you think the break is worth a ball, or a ball and a half, or even two balls, do you figure to change this value by changing the BOB rule?

Do you figure the occasional BOB is "baked into the cake"?

 

[kaye]

Gents, it's a totally tough game as is. I cant see myself making that bob with a nice lay out, then having to rerack. No way.
Next break aft rerack, i could mess it up w a kiss, screw up my 2nd break.
I just dont see the advantage. The rules are fine.!
Just out maneuver your opponents, turn THE tides and play 1 hole.
I know you guys can play, is there a prob w heads up, alternate breaks?? Are ya tryin to fix the game,,,in your favor.
Works fairly well w road players but you still have an advantage. Knowing the tables, humidity factor, rails, need i go on?
I love the rules As Are. Kiss...simple considering that some players will always out move you.
I dont worry bout the break less it becomes a Habitual thing.
The break shouldn't be a rerack or penalty to your opponents, ,, afterall, YOU DID COME TO PLAY???? B GOOD. ....

 

[wincardona]

I don't like a re-rack at all, for the reasons that have already been stated.

If a new rule had to be made re. making the ball on the break, I believe that the rule change that I conceived, and have used, is the best and fairest way to go..and that is...

If the breaker makes the corner ball he gets to keep the ball, but cannot pocket a second ball, and instead has to play a safety for his following shot...

This rule still rewards the breaker for breaking that particular rack well, and making the corner ball, but doesn't let him run several balls, or run out the game because of it, which I think is too great of a reward...my rule is a 'happy medium' among the other choices out there.

- Ghost

I'm with the people that wants to keep the breaking rule the way it is, I feel that if a player hits the break good he should get rewarded, a rerack, or even losing your shot is not the way to go (imo) Your suggestion on playing another shot as long as you don't pocket a ball is a good alternative and should be brought up for discussion with the rule committee, if there is such a thing. I'm all for your suggestion.

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

So if he accidentally pockets a ball after he makes the ball on the break does the ball go on the spot and his inning is over?

That would be the proper thing to do, imo. Either that or LOSS OF GAME. JUST KIDDING.

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

The break shot is a skill shot in terms of getting the proper type of hit so that the CB gets safe, and so that as many balls as possible are moved towards one's hole. It's considered a big advantage, and the outcome of many games can be traced back to the opening break shot.

Making a ball on the break is not a skill shot, because if it were, there would be a way to predict it and practice it. A BOB is essentially luck. Luck is a part of pool, but do we want the first shot in every game to carry with it such a devastating possible lucky outcome?

Making the 8 in Eight Ball is disallowed in tournaments. Many tournaments now disallow the 9 BOB in Nine Ball under certain circumstances. In neither of these games does the ball in question BOB occur very often, yet it is disallowed. Nine Ball players practice making the 1 ball on the break. That's a skill shot; so much so that many tournaments provide for a break box, or other methods to discourage the shot.

If we want to be assured that the game thought to be the truest test of pool --the King of games-- is to remain that way, do we want to continue official endorsement of a lucky outcome to an already advantageous position?

This discussion is meant in consideration of tournament play only. Obviously private games can be played in any manner that's agreed upon between the parties.

~Doc

Doc, you haven't been listening, LUCK IS A RESIDUE OF SKILL.



Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

It seems to me that there are guys who can make a BOB more frequently than others. Not me. However, I never practiced the break as much as I should have because it took so much time. I do not have anyone to rack for me, but I often thought of paying someone to do so.

So, if some guys can do it more often, it has to be a result of a techique they have developed. As long as they are not cheating the rack, despite adding to the advantage in general of break, do we really want to penalize a player for a skill he developed that coupled with a little luck produces, to use a golf analogy, the 1P "hole in one"? Ever make a 35 foot double break downhill put? Feels good, great judgement, you were trying and hit it just right....but alot of luck.

I think BOB should count for the reasons above.

Excellent points Phil, I agree with every thing you have just said. There are players that realize that they can't compete and win against certain players and to give themselves a better chance to win they would have to develop skills in some area of the game that would give them an edge over their opponents, practicing breaking the balls to develop the perfect hit is one of those ways, why penalize a person for somkething that he's doing that is totally legal and tactical.

Dr. Bill

 

[Miller]

"luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity"
-Seneca