Potential rules change discussion - ball on break

[phil dade]

Thank you Dr Bill...BTW, I have owned your video for years. It is an excellent source.

 

[gulfportdoc]

Excellent points Phil, I agree with every thing you have just said. There are players that realize that they can't compete and win against certain players and to give themselves a better chance to win they would have to develop skills in some area of the game that would give them an edge over their opponents, practicing breaking the balls to develop the perfect hit is one of those ways, why penalize a person for somkething that he's doing that is totally legal and tactical. Dr. Bill

Bill, I'm surprised at you. You and some of the others are mistakenly conflating being rewarded by practicing a good break shot, with being rewarded by practicing to make a ball on the break. There is no way to practice making a ball on the break. So why should a player be "rewarded" in your way of thinking when he makes a BOB? Simply breaking the balls well should be its own reward because of the tough position in which one can put his opponent.

The other thing that tickles me is that most of the participants in this thread have taken the view of the issue through the eyes of the breaker. It's as if his "rights" ought to be protected. What about the poor bastard who is sitting there watching a ball fall into his opponent's hole on the break, and realizes he might lose the game on the basis of pure, dumb luck?

I'm no Jacobin, but shouldn't we once in awhile look after the little guy?:lol

~Doc

 

[LSJohn]

You and some of the others are mistakenly conflating being rewarded by practicing a good break shot, with being rewarded by practicing to make a ball on the break.
~Doc

That's my impression also, but it's because I've always thought of BOB as dumb luck. I think we need to give a lot of consideration to Tom's ability to make a ball on the break more often (apparently) than anyone else I have seen.

It seems there must be a way to achieve this with knowledge, practice and skill, but it's not clear to me that the others favoring keeping BOB have that knowledge.

As far as I remember, Tom is the only one to talk about the specific technique.

 

[wincardona]

Bill, I'm surprised at you. You and some of the others are mistakenly conflating being rewarded by practicing a good break shot, with being rewarded by practicing to make a ball on the break. There is no way to practice making a ball on the break. So why should a player be "rewarded" in your way of thinking when he makes a BOB? Simply breaking the balls well should be its own reward because of the tough position in which one can put his opponent.

The other thing that tickles me is that most of the participants in this thread have taken the view of the issue through the eyes of the breaker. It's as if his "rights" ought to be protected. What about the poor bastard who is sitting there watching a ball fall into his opponent's hole on the break, and realizes he might lose the game on the basis of pure, dumb luck?

I'm no Jacobin, but shouldn't we once in awhile look after the little guy?:lol

~Doc

I'm sorry we disagree but I feel that a perfect hit on the top and second ball produces more balls made than any other hit. Tom Wirth breaks the balls by trying to slightly bend the cue ball into the first and second ball, this method is more effective in making a ball on the break because it gives you a better spread of the balls and it directs more energy into the second ball. Have you ever noticed that hitting the second ball full or even missing the top ball and hitting the second ball will often result in pocketing the corner ball? Maybe Tom can chime in here and explain why he gets the action he does with his break, I feel that by bending the cue ball so it splits the first two balls there is more force going into the second ball and that's how he gets the action he gets.

If this is true then those who practices this method will benefit from it, unless we change the breaking rules. Then that would be an injustice, wouldn't it?

Dr. Bill

 

[tylerdurden]

Bill, I'm surprised at you. You and some of the others are mistakenly conflating being rewarded by practicing a good break shot, with being rewarded by practicing to make a ball on the break. There is no way to practice making a ball on the break. So why should a player be "rewarded" in your way of thinking when he makes a BOB? Simply breaking the balls well should be its own reward because of the tough position in which one can put his opponent.

The other thing that tickles me is that most of the participants in this thread have taken the view of the issue through the eyes of the breaker. It's as if his "rights" ought to be protected. What about the poor bastard who is sitting there watching a ball fall into his opponent's hole on the break, and realizes he might lose the game on the basis of pure, dumb luck?

I'm no Jacobin, but shouldn't we once in awhile look after the little guy?:lol

~Doc

The very nature of the game dictates that you don't have rights when you aren't at the table though. Your one and only right at that point is to get up when a ball is not pocketed, or a foul is committed.

I feel the problem with our thinking on these matters comes from all other sports, where if your opponent plays perfect at least you have a chance to play perfect too. In pool, that's not true, you don't always get your chance. I think what happens in our minds is we think the guy in the chair should be entitled to something, but really he is not entitled to anything, nor should he be.

I think collectively we think and empathize too much with the guy in the chair. We give the chair guy way too many rights as it is, from tactically over inspecting racks to moaning about questionable calls. The one legitimate right I think the guy has is to call a ref over to watch the hit.

 

[LSJohn]

The very nature of the game dictates that you don't have rights when you aren't at the table though.

I don't think the differences of opinion about BOB are about rights, but justice, depending upon whether one thinks it's all luck, mostly luck, or largely knowledge and execution.

 

[Jeff sparks]

Bill, I'm surprised at you. You and some of the others are mistakenly conflating being rewarded by practicing a good break shot, with being rewarded by practicing to make a ball on the break. There is no way to practice making a ball on the break. So why should a player be "rewarded" in your way of thinking when he makes a BOB? Simply breaking the balls well should be its own reward because of the tough position in which one can put his opponent.

The other thing that tickles me is that most of the participants in this thread have taken the view of the issue through the eyes of the breaker. It's as if his "rights" ought to be protected. What about the poor bastard who is sitting there watching a ball fall into his opponent's hole on the break, and realizes he might lose the game on the basis of pure, dumb luck?

I'm no Jacobin, but shouldn't we once in awhile look after the little guy?:lol

~Doc

Doc,

Isn't what you are saying a contradiction in terms?

What does one practice for, but to achieve a higher level of skill.

Skill is basically a by-product of practicing correct theory & technique.

If we can agree that making a ball on the break happens more often on a properly executed shot, then there is no argument you can present that would convince a jury of our one pocket peers that making a BOTB is just dumb luck.
It's simply the optimum result of a well struck shot!

Now if perhaps the head ball is missed and a ball is made, (which we have all seen happen on occasion), then a case could be made citing, Dumb Luck. When this happens to me, I just move on and try to chalk it up in the category of "a bad roll" which it technically is, just like getting corner hooked, when he shoulda scratched, there is nothing I can do to change it, so I don't let it bother me in the slightest. I just move on, it sometimes unnerves my opponent when I don't show a reaction to it.

 

[darmoose]

I think when Scott Frost kicks into the stack to move balls towards his hole and he happens to make a ball, said ball should be spotted. This is obviously just another example of dumb luck that is ruining one pocket.:frus

 

[gulfportdoc]

I must say that I'm happy to see most of you take the traditionalist approach. This display of conservatism suggests to me that there is still a remote but very faint glimmer of hope left for the U.S. ...

~Doc

 

[bstroud]

A lot depends on the table. If you play on only one table perhaps BOB practice might work.

On one table at Kolby's by hitting the third ball full you can make a ball about 3 times out of 5.

In my opinion a good rule on BOB is to limit the breaking player to a single shot.
Therefore even if a ball is made his inning is over.

The break is enough of an advantage and when your opponent makes a ball it is heartbreaking.

Bill S.

 

[LSJohn]

If we can agree that making a ball on the break happens more often on a properly executed shot,

That's the rub. I don't think there's agreement on that.

Between you and Tom I'm about 90% convinced now, but I've heard many skilled players claim that it is pure luck, I have made balls on the break at least as often on my bad hits (miss the front ball completely) and even though there's no doubt about value in practicing the break, it never occurred to me before this thread that practicing it with the specific intent of making a ball more often had merit.

Wouldn't quality of balls, type of balls, cleanliness of balls, quality of cloth, age of cloth, and humidity all have to be ideal? If so, the perfect make-a-ball-hit wouldn't be worth much if it's any different than perfect spread-the-balls-hit in the vast majority of games we play, right?

Incidentally, I have a set of Centennials in which the 2 ball is undersized; if it is placed anywhere but one of the corners, a tight rack is impossible. I'll bet there are a lot of sets of "quality" balls that have one or more slightly odd-sized.

 

[usblues]

If theres.....

If theres.....

.......a ball on or next to the spot now your in another hassle and for what?Play on.......YMMV

 

[wincardona]

Doc,

Isn't what you are saying a contradiction in terms?

What does one practice for, but to achieve a higher level of skill.

Skill is basically a by-product of practicing correct theory & technique.

If we can agree that making a ball on the break happens more often on a properly executed shot, then there is no argument you can present that would convince a jury of our one pocket peers that making a BOTB is just dumb luck.
It's simply the optimum result of a well struck shot!

Now if perhaps the head ball is missed and a ball is made, (which we have all seen happen on occasion), then a case could be made citing, Dumb Luck. When this happens to me, I just move on and try to chalk it up in the category of "a bad roll" which it technically is, just like getting corner hooked, when he shoulda scratched, there is nothing I can do to change it, so I don't let it bother me in the slightest. I just move on, it sometimes unnerves my opponent when I don't show a reaction to it.

Very well written and explained, you nailed it Jeff. Reyes seems like he always gets lucky too, where's the common denominator there?


I feel really dumb because I rarely practice breaking, isn't it great how debates of this kind can help someone. Thanks.

Dr. Bill

 

[petie]

I just returned from a trip and will not be back-reading all the threads so forgive me if what I say has already been said by another. The only justifications for this spotting of a made ball to me would be racking for yourself and/or short races. I really don't see penalizing a good break unless you are just playing one game or you think the guy cheats when racking. Ideally, the shortest One Pocket race would be 4. That way, everybody would have an equal chance to break and should therefore have no basis for complaint.

 

[baby huey]

For those who think its luck making a ball on the break, then I guess some are just consistently luckier than others. Why do the best players seem to be the ones who make the ball on the break? Have you ever heard that click of the balls on a one pocket break and absolutely know you hit them perfect and that either a ball was going in or your hole and/or your hole would be jammed with balls. You can hear that click only on the perfect break. Just leave the game alone and it will survive long after any of us can't play anymore.

 

[petie]

For those who think its luck making a ball on the break, then I guess some are just consistently luckier than others. Why do the best players seem to be the ones who make the ball on the break? Have you ever heard that click of the balls on a one pocket break and absolutely know you hit them perfect and that either a ball was going in or your hole and/or your hole would be jammed with balls. You can hear that click only on the perfect break. Just leave the game alone and it will survive long after any of us can't play anymore.

Yea, 'that click.' If they want to take away 'that click' then the next rule should be to spot the corner ball that comes out of the rack on the oppo's side.