The problem with passing the intentional foul back to your opponent without you losing a ball is problematic. In many situations, that is all you can do to potentially save or extend the game. That is, to get your opponent on fouls as well. For example, your opponent hits the opening break terrible and you end up in the stack and all the balls are open to his pocket. You have nothing else but to take a foul. If you can get him on two fouls you might stop him from running eight and out and just maybe put yourself where at least you can make a game of it. I can think of a lot of situations where your opponent just got lucky like corner hooks and etc. and there is nothing you can do. I DON'T LIKE SITUATIONS WHERE YOU CAN'T PLAY THE GAME ANY LONGER.
I agree with you Jerry. Sometimes a player positions himself where he will get some balls no matter what you do. So by you taking a couple of fouls and he does the same you know that unless he runs out he will have to put a couple of balls back on the table and maybe prolong the game a bit to give you a chance.
If we're not playing with the three foul rule I'll take more fouls.
I had a game with Billy Teeters a good while back where he already had four balls to the good and all the balls were within a foot and a half next to his pocket and I was corner hooked at the other end of the table on his side.
I took four or five internationals and he did the same. He spotted all his balls back on the table and then I pushed the cue ball out to what I thought was the hardest shot for him but it still was fairly easy. He shot and missed it and I wound up winning the game and then his backer pulled out. His backer said if you can't win that game I'm out.
here we have 2 members who also have attained a high level of skill and have many years of experience .
darrell
shouldnt you thank them too for their opinions like you did for rod and jeff
even though frank and jerry dont agree with you??
Can always count on you Larry to demand consistency and keep people honest. That's a good thing. So, Yes, thank you both Jerry and Frank for your honest input. If I may also be honest without offending anyone (and if I am wrong please correct me), both Jerry and Frank play well, both play very deliberately, and both use every possible option available to them to win a game. Both seem to me to make good use of defensive tactics (compared to today's newer players who take more risks and shoot at their hole more often). Both their games are more similar than not to how I play (although maybe not as well). Both have said that they will take as many intentional fouls as needed, seemingly without regard for what venue they are in, and presumably without regard for other players (say in a tournament situation). I actually don't blame anyone for doing exactly that, play by the rules.
That's why the rules need to be changed. Jerry and Frank don't know if playing OP by the new rules would be better or worse, more or less enjoyable, more or less suitable to their styles of play. They simply are against change, seems to me. I would love to hear some reasoning behind their opinions, like what is the downside of rules proposals compared to the benefits.
One of the things I have noticed about nine ball players today is that they are willing to lose a game quickly, let it go, and get on with the next game. Some of the best players that I play OP with (getting a spot) play aggressively and have the same attitude, if in trouble they will want to move on to the next game.
While I can relate to Jerry's and Frank's playing styles because of lack of firepower on my part, I refuse to be restricted to "this is the way we have always played", when there is a problem to be resolved like
OP is too slow, takes too long, tournaments can't be run without shortening races, etc. I happen to think Jerry and Frank are wrong.
No one knows how any of these rules changes will overall affect the game of OP. When all is said and done, gamblers and tournament players will develop their strategies and play within the rules in effect. I know some will say "look what they did to nine ball, they ruined it". I would say that's why we can't ignore the problems and let venues like the DCC write the rules of OP, I see OP.org as being the foremost authority on OP and it should (must) have some input into how the game evolves.
I think we all want OP to be a game of many skills, and we want to minimize the "luck" factor while we know we can't eliminate it.
I think we penalize fouls because they are something to be avoided, not promoted for whatever reason. Allowing a player to intentionally foul and then benefit from it makes no sense, and is counter productive when we want to shorten and speed up play.
So, again, thank you Jerry and Frank for your opinion. Can we hear some reasoning that is in tune with the DCC's, the Memphis Melee's, the Hard Times Td's desire to solve the problems. If we don't exercise our perogative to have some input, we can only blame ourselves when others go forward without us. What baffles me is the reluctance of too many here to participate in discussions like this, and let others make decisions about OP without our input.
Thanks Larry, hope that helps.