Learning to play Bank pool question

hankh

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lll,Howdy;

possible reason for missing short
when you go thru diamonds on the 2:1 ratio you actually hit the rail before the nose point in front of the diamond
this tends to make the bank go 1/4 diamond short.
if you hit the nose of the rail in front of the diamond you should make the bank
these are natural type banks
View attachment 24127
I'd thought about this and was keeping to the point of the rail in front of the
diamond while using a centerball hit at medium speed. See above for my
reply to Whitey. I can see if what you suggest helps any and will consolidate
in next posting.
Thanks very much for you thoughts.

Ps. Also remember I'm working on a Valley Bar box made in the early 80's and
was last recovered 10 years ago or so ...

hank
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Hank & Larry;
I am only advocating that shooting the cb from the 2nd diamond side rail going through the 1st diamond opposite side rail will hit the jaw face of cushion inside the pocket of the side rail. But elsewhere as Larry diagramed, I am not advocating that, for the angle opens up and it hits the center of the pocket by splitting the diamonds and shooting through them. At least on my table.
This pertains to shooting the cb ball only, when banking the ob I would aim slightly past the split diamond, or face of diamond.

I measured the distanced between diamonds, on my table it is 14 inches. And 14 inches from the 1st diamond to the corner pocket is not in the center of the pocket but to the jaw face of the side rail. I assume the diamond lay out would be the same on other tables.

Larry, I am not sure if you made your diagram off of what you thought I said, or how some tables play. If there was some confusion, I am making it clearer on my part. I do not know how other tables play.

Hank, I almost put Valley 8ft. bar box in my previous statement as being notorious for putting on that counterworking spin on the balls, that makes the ob come up short. Those tables are hard for me to adjust to, for the ob spins when banking and comes short. I believe this is why you are coming up short. on that table you might have to cut it more plus use a tip more of natural english to make the ob. Speed on banks can be very critical on Valley's.

You can do those cross over side pocket cross side banks, where you 1 rail bank past the side pocket and it reverses back and comes backwards across side.

This phenomena of ob spinning short of the pocket does not happen on my table.
I hope this clears up some possible misconceptions. Whitey
 
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hankh

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Whitey, Howdy;

Thanks for the clarification, It helps.

The Valley in question is a 7 footer and your comment " You can do those cross
over side pocket cross side banks, where you 1 rail bank past the side pocket
and it reverses back and goes back across side. " is one of the most frustrating
things about trying to figure this out with the equipment at hand. But, I figure
if I can learn on this one then it should be easy to adjust to other tables.

Continued appreciation form my end.

hank
 

lll

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please ignore the billiard shown its the table i want to represent
whitey this is for you and not to confuse hank
my response to hank was not in reference to your post but here is alitlle nerdy kind of stuff that i think you will appreciate.
on a billiard table there are 2 diamonds to represent the corner diamond on the end rail and the side rail respectively
the true corner actually is represented by 2 diamonds close together
the pic below is a billiard table with my yellow lines to represent the "facings" of a pocket... the back of the pocket is where the 2 close together diamonds would be.
most pool players use that as the corner diamond and for most purposes its close enough
but its not the true corner diamond
why do i bring this up
when you shoot thru diamonds the ball goes to(not across from) the diamonds
when you are at the 2nd diamond and shoot thru the 1st diamond
you can see the corner diamond is in the imaginary facing i drew
from a wider angle going towards that diamond would hit the rail ie short of the pocket
thats how i understand it
icbw
billiard table diamond with pocket lines.jpg
 

hankh

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lll, Howdy;

Not to worry about confusing me, already there. That's why I was asking for
some help figuring out the Banking bidness.

In Freddy's book he uses the 2 dots at the pocket sides in all the diagrams and
it fits with what Whitey was referring to when he said this, " I measured the
distanced between diamonds, on my table it is 14 inches. And 14 inches from
the 1st diamond to the corner pocket is not in the center of the pocket but to
the jaw face of the side rail. I assume the diamond lay out would be the same
on other tables. ". It would also fit with the 1 tip of Right English for the shot
being discussed or your 1 piece of chalk past the spot on the cushion. All stuff I
can look at and check-out in a little while.

Thank you both for your help, this is a fun project.

hank
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Larry,
The illustration, represents what I was trying to portray in words, in that equal distance measurement between diamonds, puts an imaginary diamond on the jaw face of the side rail, corner pocket.

I have not seen a billiard table with diamonds like that by the corners. Of course I haven't played on or seen a billiard table since '69.

In kicking the cb I can only speak how my table reacts, not others.

When my rails were faster, I would put the cb in the center of the corner pocket and to do a long rail kick shot into the opposite corner, I would hit past (like nearly a full ball) the center diamond on head rail to go directly into the center of the pocket. Now that the rails are slower I hit on the center diamond, for now the angle widens out more. But, the diamond systems used back in those days, it worked to perfection.

On a 3 rail kick from corner to opposite corner, I would aim through the 2nd far diamond side rail, cb came off 3rd diamond opposite side rail, and directly into center of hole. The diamond system was 5-2 is 3 and the 3rd diamond lined up for the corner pocket, or 2+3=5 and 5 is the corner pocket. Or 5-1=4 which is the side pocket. Or 6-1=5 which is 5 rails into the corner pocket, and so forth. 5 being the corner pocket and/or 5th diamond, 6 first diamond end rail. 7 the center diamond end rail - 2nd diamond far side rail =5, the two rail kick shot into the corner! All kicks using a little running english.

Billiard's table diamond system played one diamond shorter than the pool tables, on a 3 rail corner to corner kick shot. Now days, it is about a 1/2 diamond, maybe 1 diamond shorter on some tables.

I believe the diamond system was first contrived by Phelan.
Thanks, Larry

I wanted to add this since we have Hank on the line here, and he has researched dvd's & books on banks. Back decades ago, when I was doing banks as a daily practice, I had diagramed up all the ob banks from 1 rail on up to 7 rail banks. It takes a very fast table to do a 7 rail bank. Hank or anyone, has anyone ever diagramed up a 7 rail ob bank, that you know of. thanks, Whitey
 
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lll

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whitey we are in agreement.....:)
when you aimed a ball past the center diamond it was as i was trying to explain in my prior diagram about
when you aim at the diamond you hit the rail before the diamond
when you aim past the diamond you can hit the rail nose in front of the diamond
hank you dont need to pay attention to any of this....:D
 

lll

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whitey
here is a pic of a real billiard table with the corner diamonds marked
billiard corner diamonds pic.jpg
 

hankh

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Whitey & Larry, Howdy;

What planet are y'all from :eek: sez me running for the door

hank
 

hankh

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Whitey & Larry, Howdy;

Ok, back to the more realistic, to me for the present, ...

The table I play on is a funny duck, as mentioned an early 1980's 7' Valley Bar
Box, Hasn't been re-covered or anything except an occasional leveling done
with a 2' Stanley carpenter's level. Monday was a Low pressure (weather day),
and today the barometer is climbing.

Started with my normal routine Lag some to get a feel for speeds up & back as
well as side to side. Then I got into CB only. 2ed diamond (D), to 1st D today
they were going about 1/3 D long. That amounts to about 3.5" . That was a
center hit at the 2ed D. When I shot in front of the 2ed D it went in.
When I opened the angle and shot from Side Pocket to 2ed D it was going
in fairly regularly.

What I did find odd was at times when I was shooting an OB as was
suggested by Whitey (OB in front of 2ed D and CB in front of 3rd D), was that
I would need to use LEFT English about a 1/2 tip to get the OB into the
pocket. Not so when I shot the OB from 2ed D and the CB from Side pocket.
Still mostly short but not much as before.

Does any of this make any kind of sense?

hank
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Whitey & Larry, Howdy;

Ok, back to the more realistic, to me for the present, ...

The table I play on is a funny duck, as mentioned an early 1980's 7' Valley Bar
Box, Hasn't been re-covered or anything except an occasional leveling done
with a 2' Stanley carpenter's level. Monday was a Low pressure (weather day),
and today the barometer is climbing.

Started with my normal routine Lag some to get a feel for speeds up & back as
well as side to side. Then I got into CB only. 2ed diamond (D), to 1st D today
they were going about 1/3 D long. That amounts to about 3.5" . That was a
center hit at the 2ed D. When I shot in front of the 2ed D it went in.
When I opened the angle and shot from Side Pocket to 2ed D it was going
in fairly regularly.

What I did find odd was at times when I was shooting an OB as was
suggested by Whitey (OB in front of 2ed D and CB in front of 3rd D), was that
I would need to use LEFT English about a 1/2 tip to get the OB into the
pocket. Not so when I shot the OB from 2ed D and the CB from Side pocket.
Still mostly short but not much as before.

Does any of this make any kind of sense?

hank
On your cb kick shots into the corner, it sounds like that coming off the 1st. diamond it ran long by 3.5". This is probably caused by the cushion being severely worn out by the pocket, thus playing soft and spreading the angle, which explains a better result coming off the 2nd diamond where the cushion is not so worn out.
Hank, would you clarify Left english, is it running(natural) or is it reverse? If you are doing the shot as I depicted I think it would be running english. Whitey
 

hankh

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Whitey, Howdy;

The worn out cushion I can understand. Also, I should mention that the balls
only get cleaned once a month and that is the Last Saturday of the month
during the formal meeting it is a VFW after all.

You asked;" Hank, would you clarify Left english, is it running(natural) or is it
reverse? If you are doing the shot as I depicted I think it would be running
english. Whitey " I'm using running in this instance. With the OB in the mix I
needed to go with Reverse.

Thanks again, I do appreciate your help with this.

hank
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Hank, this thread has been the only game in town, for banking talk, thanks!

I would think, you and your fellow VFW's guys plus the VFW could pool up some funds and fix up that old Valley.

Check with Mueller Recreation Products. I believe they will have new rails already covered that will bolt right on, and also replace the cloth, and in a couple of days, or one day you guys can get her all fixed up. Whitey
 

hankh

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Whitey, Howdy;

Hank, this thread has been the only game in town, for banking talk, thanks!

I would think, you and your fellow VFW's guys plus the VFW could pool up some funds and fix up that old Valley.

Check with Mueller Recreation Products. I believe they will have new rails already covered that will bolt right on, and also replace the cloth, and in a couple of days, or one day you guys can get her all fixed up. Whitey
Thanks, but these guys & gals are a tight fisted group but there is a guy in Las
Cruces that builds rails for folks like Muller and the others and the Olhausen
family have there store in Las Cruces as well. The guy with the rail business
was also doing tables and still does but on a rare occasion. I have been exploring
these possibilities for about 2 years now. I also found a cue maker (?), so I
can get a shaft when I need one or whatever. Has a decent rep. in the area
and is about the only show around without having to go the extra 50 or 60
miles to El Paso, Tx.

Thank you for taking an interest and helping me feel my way through this
learning curve. I always start with a 90* angle in front of me and you & lll
have helped give it some slope.

hank
 

hankh

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Whitey & lll, Howdy;

What's up guys???

Today was interesting, humidity is getting back into "normal" ranges, and the
table is ... the table. So, I just practiced finding 2:1 shots, worked the table up
& back. using the center line, and both the lines from diamond to diamond the
length of the table. Results varied due to distance and most likely my stroke /
speed management for the different length of the journeys. Exploring how
much English to add for the distance and if a change in speed will help or hinder.

Any thoughts, tips or hints?

As always, thanks for your thoughts and time to help.

hank
 

lll

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Whitey & lll, Howdy;

What's up guys???

Today was interesting, humidity is getting back into "normal" ranges, and the
table is ... the table. So, I just practiced finding 2:1 shots, worked the table up
& back. using the center line, and both the lines from diamond to diamond the
length of the table. Results varied due to distance and most likely my stroke /
speed management for the different length of the journeys. Exploring how
much English to add for the distance and if a change in speed will help or hinder.

Any thoughts, tips or hints?

As always, thanks for your thoughts and time to help.

hank
when shooting the 2:1 in a straight line ie no cut necessary
check if you hit a stop shot with no spin if there is spin and/or drift the results dont tell you what you want because it was not a pure hit
you can use this drill to practice your stroke and banks at the same time...:)
to experiment with one use of english to make a bank try this
line up the cue ball and object ball parrallel to the foot rail and one diamond up from the foot rail
put the object ball 2 diamonds from the side rail
aim straight ahead and see how much english you need to throw the object ball enough to make the bank
after you get comfortable with that
move the object ball one diamond closer to the rail you are hitting into
now see how much english you need to throw the object ball to make the bank
as you get really close you will need to cut the object ball some
you should find you need more english the closer the object ball gets to the rail
 
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hankh

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lll, Howdy;

Thanks for the drill. I can check this out Thurs. before the 9-ball tourney. My
friend Tony (91 years young), doesn't care for 9-ball so I warm-up solo then.
Sounds interesting and like a nice mental challenge.

hank
 

lll

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lll, Howdy;

Thanks for the drill. I can check this out Thurs. before the 9-ball tourney. My
friend Tony (91 years young), doesn't care for 9-ball so I warm-up solo then.
Sounds interesting and like a nice mental challenge.

hank
in onepocket alot of times you want to hit the object ball fuller to control cue ball movement so you to have to fabricate the angle for the bank with spin
 
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