It Happened Last Night. A rule's question. Shooting out of turn.

[J.R.]

This happened last night. It's a rule's question. As you read the scenario... yes, yes, yes... both must be in a world of their own. For this to happen... it is stupid, dumb, and brainless... words that could adequately describe both players for what had happened.

The two individuals, JD and Rod, are playing one pocket, a race to 5 for $500. The names in this post have not been changed to protect the innocent. I am confident that every Chicago member of "onepocket.org" knows one and perhaps both individuals.

Here's the scenario. The game score is 4 to 4. In the final and deciding game the score is 4 to 2. JD has 2 balls and played a safety. At some point, JD then walked a short distance, and with his back to the pool table, began to converse with a railbird. In turn, Rod did not shoot his shot but also walked away from the pool table to converse with a different railbird. When JD ended his conversation he returned to the pool table and mistakenly thought Rod had shot. JD commenced to pocket 3 balls. When Rod turned his attention to the pool table he stated to JD to stop because he had not shot after the safety.

I was called by JD and during a telephonic conversation he described what had happened. JD asked if there is an official rule to be followed. I stated that I did not know any official rule to be followed based on the inattentiveness of both players. I did offer three actions that they could take if both agreed. First, if possible, return the cue ball and the three balls pocketed to their original positions. Second, spot the three balls pocketed and Rod would have ball in hand in the kitchen. Third, nullify the game and start over.

Is there an official rule that could be followed?

 

[gulfportdoc]

That's an interesting situation, and I don't ever recall seeing that come up. There's really no applicable rule that I can see in either 1p.o official rules, or the WPA rules.

It doesn't seem to rise to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct. OTOH the fault really was JD's by shooting out of turn, even though it was an honest mistake, and the opponent had been reasonably occupied.

Therefore I'd use your second option: spot the three balls pocketed, and allow Rod to shoot with BIH in the Kitchen. Replacing the balls would be very difficult; and starting over would favor JD, since he was behind 4-2.

 

[beatle]

kujyhgfds

 

[Bob Jewett]

Alternative 1: Declare the match null and void and add a new rule for future matches: talking to a railbird while a game is in progress is loss of rack. (Cellphone counts as a railbird.)

Alternative 2: The entire stake is given to the room to fund the Xmas party.

It seems to me that the price is wrong. They're either playing for not enough or too much.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

This is the WPA rule: In this case and in accordance with our rules; the referee would and is the opponent.

26. REMAINING IN PLAYER’S CHAIR
The non-shooting player should remain in his designated chair while his opponent is at the table. Should a player need to leave the playing area during matches, he must request and receive permission from the referee. Should a player leave the playing area without the permission of the referee, it will be treated like unsportsmanlike conduct.

14. TIME OUT
Unless specified otherwise by the tournament organizer, each player is allowed to take one time out of five minutes during matches played over 9 (for eight ball and ten ball) and 13 (for nine ball) games. If matches are shorter there is no time out. To exercise his right to a time out the player must:

(1) inform the referee of his intention and,
(2) make sure the referee is aware of the fact and marks it on the score sheet and,
(3) make sure the referee marks the table for suspended play. (The standard procedure will be to place a cue stick on the table.)

The opponent must remain seated as during normal play; should he involve himself in an action other than standard match-playing activities it will be considered exercising his time out and no further time out will be allowed.

The time out at eight ball and nine ball is taken between racks and play is suspended.
At 14.1, the time out begins between racks; and the player at the table may continue his inning should the opponent decide to take his time out. If the non-shooter takes a time out, he must make sure there is a referee to supervise the table during his absence; otherwise he has no right to protest against any misplay by the player at the table.

The player taking the time out should remember that his actions must be within the spirit of the game and if he acts otherwise, he is subject to a penalty under the Unsportsmanlike Conduct.
If a player is suffering from a medical condition, the tournament director may choose to adjust the number of time outs.
--------------------
How would I rule If I was the authority that had to; I am with Beatle, It is a loss of game by the player that first initiated the fouls, JD! I'd say; "you guys work it out, its your match"! And walk away. Whitey

 

[Tobermory]

The fault has to lie 100% with JD. He is the player who made the mistake. Rod may not have been paying attention when JD returned to the table, but stopping JD from making the mistake is not really Rod’s obligation. J.R.’s first proposed action, with a one ball foul penalty, is correct.

Our official 1P.org rules touch on but do not fully cover this situation:

6.6 Intentional fouls are an accepted part of One Pocket tactics as long as they are played by use of a legal stroke, such as by lightly touching the cue ball with the cue tip; by rolling the cue ball to a new location without regard for legal contact with either an object ball or a cushion; by pocket scratching the cue ball; or by using a legal jump technique to force the cue ball off the table. However, if the acting official rules that a player has used an illegal technique to direct the cue ball or any object balls to a more desirable location, then the incoming player has the option of either playing the balls where they lie, or requesting the official to restore all such moved balls to their location prior to the illegal maneuver. The offending player is charged the standard one ball foul penalty, and in addition may be further penalized at the discretion of the acting official under the general rules of unsportsmanlike conduct.

11.2 In the event that a player shooting into the wrong pocket is permitted to continue the same inning at the table (beyond what is entitled by legally pocketing a ball in their own pocket) by their opponent’s or the referee’s failure to notify them of their error, such failure of notification does not legitimize any additional balls pocketed in that inning, whether pocketed in the shooter’s pocket or their opponent’s pocket. Thus the first shot to the wrong pocket in a given inning is the shooter’s responsibility, and the shooter’s opponent is entitled to any balls pocketed on that first stroke. However, any subsequently pocketed balls in the same inning are to be spotted as illegally pocketed balls, because it is the referee’s or opponent’s responsibility to notify the shooter before they erroneously continue their inning.

JD’s mistake is akin to an intentional foul, and should be treated as one, even though he was not trying to intentionally foul. As in 6.6, JD used an “illegal technique” (shooting out of turn) to direct the balls to a more desirable location, so Rod should have the option of playing the balls where they lie or restoring the moved balls (including the cue ball) to their prior locations; JD gets a one ball foul penalty.

This outcome is also suggested by 11.2: the failure of notification does not legitimize any balls pocketed by JD.

 

[Stanton Fountain]

Sorry, could not help myself -- here is another view.
It occurs to me that JD committed three seperate fouls -- one foul for each illegally pocketed ball.
Three fouls you are out? Right?
The question is whether or not there is a limit on the number of fouls per inning. Ordinarily the first foul would have ended the inning? Right? If Rod failed to observe play and call foul, did he waive it? How long does one have to assert a foul?
I have limited experience playing 1P (do love it), but "keep your head in the game" was drilled into me early for two purposes: not forgetting which pocket is yours and making sure the "owed balls" were timely spotted. I am now thinking that observing and calling fouls is another good reason to pay attention.
I was also told "snooze you lose" but here everyone was dozing.

 

[Stanton Fountain]

1P Rule 11.2 addressing shooting balls in the opponent's pocket and a responsibility to notify is not directly on point, but its intent and philosophy should apply here: " . . . In the event that a player shooting into the wrong pocket is permitted to continue the same inning at the table (beyond what is entitled by legally pocketing a ball in their own pocket) by their opponent’s or the referee’s failure to notify them of their error, such failure of notification does not legitimize any additional balls pocketed in that inning, whether pocketed in the shooter’s pocket or their opponent’s pocket. Thus the first shot to the wrong pocket in a given inning is the shooter’s responsibility, and the shooter’s opponent is entitled to any balls pocketed on that first stroke. However, any subsequently pocketed balls in the same inning are to be spotted as illegally pocketed balls, because it is the referee’s or opponent’s responsibility to notify the shooter before they erroneously continue their inning." [Emphasis Added]

 

[Stanton Fountain]

Many times, when a player ultimately shoots a ball into an opponents pocket, we cannot be certain of his intent until the ball is pocketed. (He could be banking.) To interrupt prior to certainty of the opponent's intent would be a breach of etiquette.

A player stepping to a table and bridging while it is still his opponent's inning is clearly out of bounds -- there is no question that illegal play is afoot.

Rule 11.2 makes it clear that players have a duty to prevent opponents from erroneously engaging in illegal play through notification.

Rod should have been observing and should have interrupted JD, at the latest, when he bridged.

 

[beatle]

those rules work well for tournaments. where both players are there and watching each move.
but in the pool room we get distracted and sometimes tell the opponent to go ahead while we go get something. so if you do that are you now giving up all rights to him making multiple fouls.
in the pool room snooze you lose works best.

 

[sorackem]

Has anyone here ever heard of playing three fouls where the offending shooter doesn't need to be warned when on two?

 

[Jimmy B]

Has anyone here ever heard of playing three fouls where the offending shooter doesn't need to be warned when on two?

Never...

 

[BRLongArm]

fighters must protect themselves at all times. Player one was not paying attention. Player two did not shoot. Player one assumed it was his shot without asking. Player 1 made the mistake. Spot the illegally made balls and he owes one for the foul. Not in the rules, but best I can do.

 

[sorackem]

Not in the rules, but best I can do

It is in the rules (and I think your solution makes sense) -
12.1 Unless a referee is assigned, players shall be responsible for refereeing their own match. Whenever the players themselves can come to an amicable agreement on any scoring or officiating issues to their satisfaction, and play continues, their decision shall be deemed final.

 

[androd]

These two fellas need to play for fun or bet a LOT more.
P.S. It's my bucket list to kill a rail bird and a maid.
P.P.S. they should just flip a coin for the$500

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Here is another WPA rule
6.13 Playing out of Turn

It is a standard foul to unintentionally play out of turn. Normally, the balls will be played from
the position left by the mistaken play. If a player intentionally plays out of turn, it should be
treated like 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Whitey

 

[12squared]

Here is another WPA rule
6.13 Playing out of Turn

It is a standard foul to unintentionally play out of turn. Normally, the balls will be played from
the position left by the mistaken play. If a player intentionally plays out of turn, it should be
treated like 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Whitey

So the rule's saying he keeps the 3 balls made?

 

[J.R.]

A player stepping to a table and bridging while it is still his opponent's inning is clearly out of bounds -- there is no question that illegal play is afoot.

Rule 11.2 makes it clear that players have a duty to prevent opponents from erroneously engaging in illegal play through notification.

Rod should have been observing and should have interrupted JD, at the latest, when he bridged.
[/QUOTE by Stanton Fountain)]

1P Rule 11.2 addressing shooting balls in the opponent's pocket and a responsibility to notify is not directly on point, but its intent and philosophy should apply here: " . . . In the event that a player shooting into the wrong pocket is permitted to continue the same inning at the table (beyond what is entitled by legally pocketing a ball in their own pocket) by their opponent’s or the referee’s failure to notify them of their error, such failure of notification does not legitimize any additional balls pocketed in that inning, whether pocketed in the shooter’s pocket or their opponent’s pocket. Thus the first shot to the wrong pocket in a given inning is the shooter’s responsibility, and the shooter’s opponent is entitled to any balls pocketed on that first stroke. However, any subsequently pocketed balls in the same inning are to be spotted as illegally pocketed balls, because it is the referee’s or opponent’s responsibility to notify the shooter before they erroneously continue their inning." [Emphasis Added]


My interpretation of rule 11.2 is different than yours. In your post you stated, "Rule 11.2 makes it clear that players have a duty to prevent opponents from erroneously engaging in illegal play through notification." You further stated, "Rod should have been observing and should have interrupted JD, at the latest, when he bridged."

My interpretation of rule 11.2 is that it's the opponent or referee's responsibility to notify the shooter after the shooter has executed his first shot into the wrong pocket. However, the second and every shot made pocketing a ball in the wrong pocket is then the responsibility of the opponent or referee to notify the shooter of his error. In other words, if the shooter is shooting at the wrong pocket, the opponent or referee is not responsible to tell the shooter which pocket he has (except if the opponent or referee is asked by the shooter). Once the shooter executes his shot at the wrong pocket the shooter should be notified immediately by his opponent or referee whereby the pocketed ball is scored for the opponent and the incoming opponent shoots from where the cue ball is laying on the table. However, if the opponent or referee allows or fails to notice that the shooter is shooting at the wrong pocket, then every ball made in the wrong pocket after the first one is to be spotted.

I agree that Rod should have been observing JD at the table but did not until JD made the 3rd ball into Rod's pocket. I believe from the information posted by the members that the correct ruling would have been that Rod keeps the 1st ball JD made in his pocket, that the 2nd and 3rd balls are spotted that JD made in Rod's pocket, that Rod plays the cue ball where it lays on the table, and JD is penalized a one ball foul for shooting out of turn.

What actually did happen between JD and Rod? I heard there was a coin flip and all three balls were spotted.

 

[beatle]

ytdf

 

[sorackem]

[14] (3) make sure the referee marks the table for suspended play. (The standard procedure will be to place a cue stick on the table.)

You can stop and go to the bathroom or otherwise take a break, but it is more than common to leave your cue on the table.
If a break or time-out has not been called - it should, at the least, be a foul to leave the table.