Filler/ Chohan May 12-13th

[catkins]

Well, I guess I am not in the majority in the way I look at this match, and why Tony lost. What I saw was Tony very nearly kept up with Filler in pocketing balls and running balls -- and that is shown by that guy AtLarge who posted his match stats. However, Filler got all the way out a few more times than Chohan did. So, I would give the edge to Filler for sure on the offensive side of the game -- as all of us were probably expecting. But the thing that I was surprised at, which to me is what actually made the difference in the match, was that Tony failed to use his extra One Pocket knowledge and experience to beat Filler to the shot. Tony had no edge there, despite all his One Pocket experience. That was a surprise to me, and that is the one place I would say Tony underperformed in that match, and explains why he lost.

Basically, when you have one player that knows the game a lot better than another player that is relying on firepower, the player with the knowledge has to win the battle over who gets the to the first shot the majority of time -- maybe even a super majority -- and that did not happen. Filler actually often beat Tony to the first shot. That is not going to work for Tony against Filler, now or next time. And likewise, if Filler is able to do that against the best One Pocket has to offer (like Alex, Dennis), I'm afraid it's over for the rest of the One Pocket world lol, because no doubt at all Filler runs balls as well as anyone in 2020.

That's my opinion

This is what I saw in both this match and against denis is that tony needs to get all the way out when he has the chance cause it is the difference in so many of these matches who gets all the way out when an opportunity arises and with a guy like tony who is so good at finding the first shot that can be the difference between leaving winner and leaving loser against the top

 

[keoneyo]

the more experienced one pocket player can choose to neutralize the game. not just defense, but manage the balls and manouver them into a more neutral position so that it becomes a field-position approach instead of going for your hole
what comes to mind there is Chris Gentile. the first game against Pagulayan in the US Open 2011 i believe
This is very much a strenght of his, Gentile clearly chooses to make it a no-pocketing-game, breaking down Pags rythm
less so of Chohan but it could have been an arena of choice for Chohan.
someone else here wrote about an unwillingness to embrace the grind...

I can't wait to see how Filler will handle a couple of 40-minute racks

This is crucial in a game against an opponent like Filler.
Watching Filler's 1 set loss to Ilha (?) I saw Physical and Mental flaws.
Filler seemed physically tired and wanted to quit but Ilha goaded him into playing one more.
Ilha also played a move on Filler by calling fouls on Filler and subsequently getting Filler in a discussion about it.
All this was to Ilha's advantage. Putting Filler into a psychological battle and his rhythm on kilter.
In other words he was on Tilt. No way Filler should lose to him with the spot (11 to 6?)
This was the real case of David beating a Goliath.
In my opinion. The longer the game goes it is to Tonys advantage. The shorter the game it goes to Fillers side.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Tony, has played I believe Dennis, Alex, and Filler, if I am correct? If so, he has taken on the best pocketer players in the world. His first match with Dennis, Tony should of requested a shot clock, but not his style, for Dennis would take forever and finally figure out the best shot. The next time they played, Dennis was shooting quite a bit faster. But after this match I stated that Tony needed a defensive minded coach.

I believe Tony and Frost could demand to play on their own turf, and still get action, and this is what I would endeavor to pull off. I'd actually would really like to see them go head to head.

As far as Filler, if you watch the 2019 DCC Big Foot championship, Filler had Chang Lin by a good margin, and like this match, Filler was shooting as if he was practicing, but then Lin bared down, clean up his mistakes and put pressure on Filler, and Filler did falter. Well in this match I guess things turned around late on day one and Filler ended up one game up. Day two Filler jumped out and had 4 games up, and Tony never could put enough pressure on him to get him to falter, or to back off of those banks that would of otherwise sold out the game.

But, this was still IMO a great match, and I believe Tony was trying like hell. But with a four or five game lead how do you stop the free for all shooting. I like how they stayed in the trenches instead of shooting balls up table, very enjoyable. Whitey

 

[darmoose]

Filler didn’t look short on anything... Course the only way his true metal in the game will be tested, is when he plays a total package player... Pags being the # 1 on a short list... Dennis being the other... Both of these guys play the entire game well, and use mind numbing pace as their ally... It’s yet to be seen how Filler will react to not getting a shot at his pocket in an hour! That’s an exaggeration, of course, but it’s something we have no answer to as yet because it wasn’t employed by Tony, he plays wide open and fast...

I don’t care who you are or how battle hardened you’ve become, when push comes to shove, it’s all about heart and who breaks down whom to get the win... Pace is a part of that breakdown procedure, pushing balls up table, hiding the cb under a ball or frozen in the stack or on a rail, and all that walking around the table, getting down, getting up, getting down, getting up, is a dance performed by the Fred Astaire masters of one pocket, and it will indeed have the desired effect on the opposition... After watching this dance for hours on end, getting up cold and firing that ball in from off the joint the length of the table ain’t gonna be as easy, that’s for sure...

I believe Filler is special, from watching the second days action, he looked supremely confident... He looked like he knew he was going to win... And in contrast, Tony looked like he knew it also...

It will be very interesting to see how Filler will do against some of the more seasoned & deliberate players, and if he will even give them action without a spot... Personally, I don’t believe he will play either of the top two, but he might play Bergman or Hall, maybe Roberts..

I agree with your take on this also Jeff. Tony's mistake was to play Filler's game. It remains to be seen how Filler will fare against a top player who will use some "strategery" and slow things down. He ain't gonna be easy to beat, and I don't think he'll play Dennis or Alex, at least not without some weight. I see him maybe going up against a Busty, who I think will give him a run for his money.

It's easy to poo poo the more "thoughtful" game, but until he can show he can handle the pace of Pag's or Robocop it will remain a question. In his hey day Efren would have been an interesting opponent for Filler.

 

[BRLongArm]

They burn out all their stake horses. They get put on make up and don't honor it, instead getting a new stake horse. They borrow money and can't pay it back. Eventually, they lose interest in playing because if they do book a winner, five guys are lined up to get money. Same as anywhere else in the world.

 

[Tobermory]

So why would anyone take the stake horse position? In all my years around this game, I've never really understood the financial incentive for a stake horse to risk money on a pool player that acts as a free agent. I can understand the vicarious thrill of being inside the action, but I just don't get why anyone would think the stake horse position is likely to pay off.

They burn out all their stake horses. They get put on make up and don't honor it, instead getting a new stake horse. They borrow money and can't pay it back. Eventually, they lose interest in playing because if they do book a winner, five guys are lined up to get money. Same as anywhere else in the world.

 

[vapros]

Tobermory, I don't think any stake horse expects to make money backing pool players. He always gives up the short end of the gamble and is often abused in various other ways. He is willing to pay, and has the money. He is purchasing something. Don't you ever do that?

They are pretty much unique to pool, and are a major part of the action - a very large part of it. Nearly all the money in the big-time matches that we are enjoying is stake horse money.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

So why would anyone take the stake horse position? In all my years around this game, I've never really understood the financial incentive for a stake horse to risk money on a pool player that acts as a free agent. I can understand the vicarious thrill of being inside the action, but I just don't get why anyone would think the stake horse position is likely to pay off.

in certain circumstances it does. I know one who made quite a good living backing Buddy. Over the course of 6 or 7 yrs he rarely lost.

 

[Tobermory]

I do buy stuff I want, but I've only staked a player twice, and I didn't like the feeling I got from it, so I stopped looking for opportunities and just said no when the requests came my way. I just don't want to be the guy getting fleeced by my "partner", and the thrill of the bet isn't enough for me to overcome the paranoia that I'd be getting dumped. Now if my buddy was Buddy when Buddy was a near dead lock to win every time he got down, I might feel differently. Maybe I need better friends who are better players that know how to match up and can't be beat.

Tobermory, I don't think any stake horse expects to make money backing pool players. He always gives up the short end of the gamble and is often abused in various other ways. He is willing to pay, and has the money. He is purchasing something. Don't you ever do that?

They are pretty much unique to pool, and are a major part of the action - a very large part of it. Nearly all the money in the big-time matches that we are enjoying is stake horse money.

 

[El Chapo]

I’ve played plenty of 9 ballers that I’d need 7,8,9 and probably not win, however I’ve beaten a few of them even 1P, and broke even with a few. I’ve also gotten a few whoopings over the years also. You just never know how it’s going to workout but I for sure try to make it more of a moving game. I also don’t want an uptable game because they all bank better than me.

Yes. I really should have cleaned up that statement. I have no idea on your skill level jto, I am commenting independent of it, but what I should have said is I feel knowledge is extremely overrated for these good players. Average players knowledge is going to be huge. Everything... because there are so many innings the knowledge is the leverage.

 

[El Chapo]

Well, I guess I am not in the majority in the way I look at this match, and why Tony lost. What I saw was Tony very nearly kept up with Filler in pocketing balls and running balls -- and that is shown by that guy AtLarge who posted his match stats. However, Filler got all the way out a few more times than Chohan did. So, I would give the edge to Filler for sure on the offensive side of the game -- as all of us were probably expecting. But the thing that I was surprised at, which to me is what actually made the difference in the match, was that Tony failed to use his extra One Pocket knowledge and experience to beat Filler to the shot. Tony had no edge there, despite all his One Pocket experience. That was a surprise to me, and that is the one place I would say Tony underperformed in that match, and explains why he lost.

Basically, when you have one player that knows the game a lot better than another player that is relying on firepower, the player with the knowledge has to win the battle over who gets the to the first shot the majority of time -- maybe even a super majority -- and that did not happen. Filler actually often beat Tony to the first shot. That is not going to work for Tony against Filler, now or next time. And likewise, if Filler is able to do that against the best One Pocket has to offer (like Alex, Dennis), I'm afraid it's over for the rest of the One Pocket world lol, because no doubt at all Filler runs balls as well as anyone in 2020.

That's my opinion

That is what I found so interesting about this Ervilino Strickland 14.1 match I just watched. It amazed me how knowledge, or lack of, can manifest itself. There was one critical point in that match with a safety battle, and man Earl made a really heady shot. He beat Ervilino to the shot with ease, and it did not take 20 years of 14.1 knowledge to do it.... which is often the case in my estimation, especially when the player with lesser knowledge has good instincts. But really, common knowledge would dictate Erviliono would be a huge favorite any time a safety battle come up.

I have a question for you all who saw Efren early on. I know he was a special talent, but really... how long did it take him to start trapping players in one pocket in ways they had never even been trapped before? I would bet after about a week of playing.

I sorta disagree with what Billy said. Although at the same time I practically treat his words as one pocket gospel. I just do not believe it is a player's ability to gather knowledge fast today that is the difference. Because, that would mean good players could not learn from watching back then, I think? I believe any reasonably savvy pool player can learn one pocket in a one goddam month. It is much more about a player's instincts than it is about acquired knowledge.

 

[unoperro]

That is what I found so interesting about this Ervilino Strickland 14.1 match I just watched. It amazed me how knowledge, or lack of, can manifest itself. There was one critical point in that match with a safety battle, and man Earl made a really heady shot. He beat Ervilino to the shot with ease, and it did not take 20 years of 14.1 knowledge to do it.... which is often the case in my estimation, especially when the player with lesser knowledge has good instincts. But really, common knowledge would dictate Erviliono would be a huge favorite any time a safety battle come up.

I have a question for you all who saw Efren early on. I know he was a special talent, but really... how long did it take him to start trapping players in one pocket in ways they had never even been trapped before? I would bet after about a week of playing.

I sorta disagree with what Billy said. Although at the same time I practically treat his words as one pocket gospel. I just do not believe it is a player's ability to gather knowledge fast today that is the difference. Because, that would mean good players could not learn from watching back then, I think? I believe any reasonably savvy pool player can learn one pocket in a one goddam month. It is much more about a player's instincts than it is about acquired knowledge.

You overlook 1 very important fact , todays player have many resources for aquiring knowledge. They dont have to grind it out across the country to see the different ways of trapping. Videos and books are easy to aquire. I was in college in mid 80s and there was only Fels' Mastering Pool and Mosconi's little book that were readily available for me.

A second fact is the overall level of play has improved.

 

[NH Steve]

I think Tom Wirth posted a photo of Filler studying Tom's book. That's a yikes moment right there!!

 

[gulfportdoc]

I agree with your take on this also Jeff. Tony's mistake was to play Filler's game. It remains to be seen how Filler will fare against a top player who will use some "strategery" and slow things down. He ain't gonna be easy to beat, and I don't think he'll play Dennis or Alex, at least not without some weight. I see him maybe going up against a Busty, who I think will give him a run for his money.

It's easy to poo poo the more "thoughtful" game, but until he can show he can handle the pace of Pag's or Robocop it will remain a question. In his hey day Efren would have been an interesting opponent for Filler.

This Filler kid is obviously red hot right now. He's at the right age-- 22 years old, has phenomenal ball pocketing skills, and is fearless. There have been dozens like him in pool's history. There are parallels in golf, poker, and other endeavors. In golf, they go for every shot, and usually succeed. In poker, they shove 'em all in whenever they get the chance. But oftentimes the first time they get sufficiently beat, usually by a much smarter player, they get to experience infallibility, and start to realize that they can be beaten, and that it doesn't always work out for them.

I recall seeing the young Pagulayan in Reno in the '90s. I watched him bust up a pro ring game with 5 other top shooters when he broke and ran 6 racks of 10 ball. The kid never missed a ball. But do you think he could beat Efren, Joyner or any other top 1P players then? No. Even he, as one of the finest players to ever play, had to learn a little patience and sagacity. This will happen to Filler as well. Enjoy him while he's hot, just like we did Keith, Buddy, Sigel, Strickland, and others: and still marvel at SVB, Orcullo, Alex, and a few more.

 

[Jeff sparks]

Excellent post, Jeff, you're spot on describing the breaking down process and how it affects players, I'm in total agreement with you on all of what you have posted. Filler playing a player like Orcollo will be the ultimate test which I feel he's not ready for yet, maybe never because he's such a fast-paced player that lives and survives on his aggressiveness. I believe Filler has the skill and abilities to beat any player in the world from what I saw, however, playing a lengthy match against a player the likes of Orcullo or Pagulayan at this time wouldn't bode well for a 22-year-old champion he would be in waters that were deeper than anything he's ever experienced. I'm not taking anything away from his brilliance as a player just talking from a managers perspective..if you know what I mean.

Dr. Bill

Thanks Bill,
Appreciate ya...
IMO, Filler isn’t as wild as most young guns, he does play both rapidly ( quick ) and aggressive, but in this recent match with Tony, I may have missed it, but I never saw him shoot a single shot without weighing it up very thoughtfully, he’s not reckless like almost all young players are in the early stages of their career... Perhaps that maturity is because he’s really not in the early stage anymore, he’s been playing at a high level for what, 4 years now...

It is still early though, age wise, and one pocket experience wise, but there’s more to it with this kid, something very special, kinda like when Efren first showed up ya know, once you saw him play, you just knew you had witnessed the real deal...

Time will tell, but I got a feelin... He’s gonna give it a run and just might have “The Right Stuff”

 

[Jeff sparks]

I agree with your take on this also Jeff. Tony's mistake was to play Filler's game. It remains to be seen how Filler will fare against a top player who will use some "strategery" and slow things down. He ain't gonna be easy to beat, and I don't think he'll play Dennis or Alex, at least not without some weight. I see him maybe going up against a Busty, who I think will give him a run for his money.

It's easy to poo poo the more "thoughtful" game, but until he can show he can handle the pace of Pag's or Robocop it will remain a question. In his hey day Efren would have been an interesting opponent for Filler.

Hi moose,
Your comparison to Efren is spot on IMO...
Although it’s way to early to make the jump to light speed in that type of assessment, it’s exactly who came to my mind after watching him play Tony... So many factors come into the making of a true pool prodigy... We can only watch in awe and hope the “Kid” stays the course needed to become the next Efren “Bata” Reyes. Like Efren, he’s sure fun to watch!

 

[Jeff sparks]

This Filler kid is obviously red hot right now. He's at the right age-- 22 years old, has phenomenal ball pocketing skills, and is fearless. There have been dozens like him in pool's history. There are parallels in golf, poker, and other endeavors. In golf, they go for every shot, and usually succeed. In poker, they shove 'em all in whenever they get the chance. But oftentimes the first time they get sufficiently beat, usually by a much smarter player, they get to experience infallibility, and start to realize that they can be beaten, and that it doesn't always work out for them.

I recall seeing the young Pagulayan in Reno in the '90s. I watched him bust up a pro ring game with 5 other top shooters when he broke and ran 6 racks of 10 ball. The kid never missed a ball. But do you think he could beat Efren, Joyner or any other top 1P players then? No. Even he, as one of the finest players to ever play, had to learn a little patience and sagacity. This will happen to Filler as well. Enjoy him while he's hot, just like we did Keith, Buddy, Sigel, Strickland, and others: and still marvel at SVB, Orcullo, Alex, and a few more.

I agree Doc,
Especially with your analysis of young players being tied to a whipping post! It’s an eye opener for 99 out of a 100 of them, and if they don’t overcome that initial fear, then they will never move on... This kid might be the 1 out of 100 who can handle it...

Although the match with Tony was skewed in that it wasn’t really for big money, and the kid had home court, he did beat Tony Chohan... Pretty sporty for a 22 year old... It took balls to play him, then stand in there and beat him took something more...
He did it, and it didn’t look like he struggled all that hard...

It’ll be fun to follow his career and see how he handles the bigger stage.... I’m looking forward to it...

Good post Doc, as usual...When you come to Houston, Spaghetti’s on me, I got a new spot! It’s dye-no- mite!

 

[jtompilot]

They burn out all their stake horses. They get put on make up and don't honor it, instead getting a new stake horse. They borrow money and can't pay it back. Eventually, they lose interest in playing because if they do book a winner, five guys are lined up to get money. Same as anywhere else in the world.

I’m one of the five

 

[jtompilot]

Yes. I really should have cleaned up that statement. I have no idea on your skill level jto, I am commenting independent of it, but what I should have said is I feel knowledge is extremely overrated for these good players. Average players knowledge is going to be huge. Everything... because there are so many innings the knowledge is the leverage.

A couple of years ago I was playing Vinny, the owner of Clifton Billiards on his 3 7/8 gaff GC. While I was playing Vinny, I overheard some guy on the other table talking to his friend about some 10 ball tournament and he had Earl Strickland beat and but somehow lost and he was pissed at himself.

I was four games up on Vinny when he quit me and sent the 10 baller over to play me. After six games we were even and I said, Let’s play race to three for Vinny’s money. Crap, I lost three games in 30 minutes. The guy started shooting at everything and never missed. It was a fun night.

 

[keoneyo]

Filler and the Euro team did come out to Santa Monica HOB for a week before the Mosconi Cup. They were told to come out where the pockets were tough. Marcus Chamat the leader brought them as he has battled on these tables many times. Filler did not make all those long hard shots and was a bit surprised at the tightness of the pockets.