Calling a foul

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis,

The way you play a game won't make you a gentleman even if you call fouls on yourself for the next hundred years.I would never call a foul on myself except when playing longtime gambling partners or friends. That is true of both you and I. Never-the-less it is still refered to as the gentleman's game as we both know.I thought that was 3 cushion billiards When I'm in the mood to have some fun with someone I don't really care for I prefer to play the other way.

I can make life a living hell for somebody trying to call fouls on me. By the time they get all wrapped up in the fouls they think I might be trying to hide they are too focused on that to play pool. It doesn't take much, a perfectly legal shot and then jerking my head to where they are sitting in their chair to see if they were watching. Deliberately selecting shots that they can't see from their chair when better shots are available. The occasional sudden expletive when I shoot and then continuing on with routine shooting. I haven't fouled a single time nor have I sharked the other player while he was shooting. However I have him so far out of his game that he couldn't make a ball in the ocean. You cannot shark me with any action, subtle or overt.

I have taken this path maybe a few dozen times over the years when someone doesn't call their own fouls and denies the fouls I see.I would never in life deny a foul that I committed. The results have always been the same. A player pissed off out of his mind about all of the fouls I am making and denying when in reality I haven't committed a single foul. I can't recall anyone ever beating me when I did this. You must be playing imbeciles, you know, like guys who let you spot two and go to 8 when you are spotting them 10-7.

I never said I was a gentleman, just that I prefered to play a gentleman's game. I never said you weren't a gentleman, only that it was un-gentlemanly to suggest that I wasn't for preferring to have you do your job.

Hu

Hu,

Just because I expect you to fulfill your duties when you are in the chair doesn't mean that I am dishonest or lacking in integrity. Maybe you should read this entire thread, you may learn something about me and my character.

Dennis

 

[John Brumback]

Have to admit I read the first few pages and the last one so I have missed most of this thread. However there are good and simple reasons I believe in each player calling his own fouls. First, he is in the best position to know he fouled. However there is another and more important reason. I prefer to not interfere with my opponent when he is shooting and him not interfere with me. However if there is no ref and the other player doesn't call his own fouls that has put me in the position of being the ref.

That means when he is shooting and all I can see from my chair is his butt I am not only entitled but obligated to get up and stand where I can see the shot even if it is on top of him or directly in front of him. I will behave exactly as a good referee should and that sometimes means getting very close to the player trying to shoot or standing directly in his line of sight. Don't call it sharking when I jump up to see a shot when it is my responsibility to do so either.

I prefer to sit very still in my chair or stay out of the other player's line of vision when I'm not at the table. However when the player insists I function as a referee I will do just that. Far more pleasant to play a gentleman's game but I generally play however the other person prefers to play.

Hu

Thanks,this Is a good post.If we don't have a ref we better ref ourselves.Very good thinking. I hope you don't try to make a living out there playing a "gentlemans" game. You might just go hungry or worse...sleep In the car,or I should say truck.Cars sleep better than trucks.imo But I have done both.John B.

 

[John Brumback]

Bill,

JB's integrity or anyone elses does not need to be backed up or questioned by anyone. The simple truth is that if the person in the chair did his job none of this would come up. Whether JB or I were dishonest or lacking integrity would not matter if the person in the chair fulfilled his duty.

Dennis

Thanks Bill P. and Dennis,But I think everyone understands now and gets the point.(that all they have to do Is pay attention) In my opinion It all comes down to "being your own ref".I like that guote that Shootingarts came up with. Listen..we don't and can't have refs at every match we play.aint gonna happen In pool.Ok then...And I can't and will not play the gentelmans way.I tried that when I was a kid and that didn't work out to well for me.Maybe I'm just old school.I don't feel that old though.lol John B.

 

[John Brumback]

I understand where the non foul callers are coming from..... However I will always call a foul on myself UNLESS I feel like my opponent wouldn't.


I adjust my level of etiquette to my opponent. I do prefer to call fouls on myself because it seems like the right way to play and the majority of people I play against do also without hesitation.

I think it really comes down to your experience with the people you gamble with.

If your adversary would NEVER call a foul on themselves it would be kind of ridiculous to act differently. That would almost be like giving up a spot.


Dudley

Real good.I like how you handle yourself.Yeah you don't want to give up a spot If ya don't have to,uh.John B.

 

[philwelch]

Dennis,

The way you play a game won't make you a gentleman even if you call fouls on yourself for the next hundred years. That is true of both you and I. Never-the-less it is still refered to as the gentleman's game as we both know. When I'm in the mood to have some fun with someone I don't really care for I prefer to play the other way.

I can make life a living hell for somebody trying to call fouls on me. By the time they get all wrapped up in the fouls they think I might be trying to hide they are too focused on that to play pool. It doesn't take much, a perfectly legal shot and then jerking my head to where they are sitting in their chair to see if they were watching. Deliberately selecting shots that they can't see from their chair when better shots are available. The occasional sudden expletive when I shoot and then continuing on with routine shooting. I haven't fouled a single time nor have I sharked the other player while he was shooting. However I have him so far out of his game that he couldn't make a ball in the ocean.

I have taken this path maybe a few dozen times over the years when someone doesn't call their own fouls and denies the fouls I see. The results have always been the same. A player pissed off out of his mind about all of the fouls I am making and denying when in reality I haven't committed a single foul. I can't recall anyone ever beating me when I did this.

I never said I was a gentleman, just that I prefered to play a gentleman's game.

Hu

That's a great point Shooting Arts. How about this situation, the score is 1 to 1 in a race to four and in the middle of the game your opponent says hey aren't you up 2 to1? Did you move your coin? Your positive of the score but start thinking of everything that has transpired, wondering if the score is 1 to1 or 2 to 1.
Now you have no focus and I'm not so sure it isn't a deliberate move on my opponents part.

 

[shootingarts]

been there

been there

Thanks,this Is a good post.If we don't have a ref we better ref ourselves.Very good thinking. I hope you don't try to make a living out there playing a "gentlemans" game. You might just go hungry or worse...sleep In the car,or I should say truck.Cars sleep better than trucks.imo But I have done both.John B.

John,

I've been there over a few stretches long ago, making my living from playing pool. Didn't do too bad, I kept two mortgages paid. I slept in the truck a few times too though. Camper Special, nice firm seat and wider than most cars.

I've done many a thing on a pool table that most would deny doing. I've always been willing to meet anyone halfway, for better or worse. One of the things about playing pool to put beans on the table, we don't always get to choose who we play with. I don't think there is much possible that I haven't done and I used to proclaim myself the best left handed pool player in the state. That had nothing to do with shooting left handed. I've also played based on declaring our own fouls many a time when the games made the difference if I ate that day or not. Didn't mean I was asleep in my chair and if I discovered the other person wasn't calling their fouls I shifted to match them or started playing games of my own like mentioned in my second post. Nothing frustrates someone worse than thinking you are cheating and being unable to prove it because you really aren't.

Thanks for reading my post and considering my viewpoint. My style of play worked for me but no doubt it helped that I wasn't a damned fool about it. Playing a game based on personal integrity is foolish if the other person doesn't have any. Just to clarify for other readers, I'm not saying that there is a different level of integrity in calling our own fouls or calling the other player's fouls, however agreeing to call our own and failing to do so does show a lack of integrity.

Hu

 

[John Brumback]

John,

I've been there over a few stretches long ago, making my living from playing pool. Didn't do too bad, I kept two mortgages paid. I slept in the truck a few times too though. Camper Special, nice firm seat and wider than most cars.

I've done many a thing on a pool table that most would deny doing. I've always been willing to meet anyone halfway, for better or worse. One of the things about playing pool to put beans on the table, we don't always get to choose who we play with. I don't think there is much possible that I haven't done and I used to proclaim myself the best left handed pool player in the state. That had nothing to do with shooting left handed. I've also played based on declaring our own fouls many a time when the games made the difference if I ate that day or not. Didn't mean I was asleep in my chair and if I discovered the other person wasn't calling their fouls I shifted to match them or started playing games of my own like mentioned in my second post. Nothing frustrates someone worse than thinking you are cheating and being unable to prove it because you really aren't.

Thanks for reading my post and considering my viewpoint. My style of play worked for me but no doubt it helped that I wasn't a damned fool about it. Playing a game based on personal integrity is foolish if the other person doesn't have any. Just to clarify for other readers, I'm not saying that there is a different level of integrity in calling our own fouls or calling the other player's fouls, however agreeing to call our own and failing to do so does show a lack of integrity.

Hu

Thanks. Sounds like you have done very well for yourself by playng pool,Good job!! Yeah If the guy I'm getting ready to play wants to call our own fouls and I "trust" him..I'll go along with It and see how It goes.There's some In the pool world I trust,and some..not so much.I fully understand what your saying.Good evening sir. John B.

 

[shootingarts]

I give him the benefit of the doubt

I give him the benefit of the doubt

That's a great point Shooting Arts. How about this situation, the score is 1 to 1 in a race to four and in the middle of the game your opponent says hey aren't you up 2 to1? Did you move your coin? Your positive of the score but start thinking of everything that has transpired, wondering if the score is 1 to1 or 2 to 1.
Now you have no focus and I'm not so sure it isn't a deliberate move on my opponents part.

I give him the benefit of the doubt that he isn't trying to distract me, just trying to correct a possible error. Years ago shooting in a world class invitational event(rifles not pool) I found it could be very difficult to count to five under enough pressure! By taking what he says at face value you don't have any emotional investment in what he said and you should be able to regain focus easily.

If I really think he is trying to shark I laugh to myself about it. That means he is feeling like his back is against the wall and he can't cut it on the pool table. I've known a few people who would have tried to shark Stevie Wonder if they got him on a table but most of the time when a person starts off table moves it means they are feeling weak. Blood in the water and I feed off of their weakness.

The key to a strong mental game is spinning every situation to your advantage in your mind. This doesn't mean lying to yourself, it just means that there are usually multiple perspectives to view anything from. I choose to view things from the angle most beneficial to my game most of the time. I should do it all the time but nobody has a perfect mental game.

Hu

 

[Tennessee Joe6]

Bill,

That is non-responsive to the thread and completely irrelevant. A golfer cannot gain any advantage whatsoever by admitting a foul, a poolplayer can.

Those of you who equate this with cheating, lack of character, lack of integrity, dishonesty, poor morals or anything else along those lines are people who always cause problems for players who know the rules and play within them. SactownTom clearly stated that it is the non-shooters responsibility to call fouls. He said this is in the rules. Play by the rules and you won't have a problem. Why is that so hard for you to do?

John B. also clearly stated that as soon as tournament rules are changed to include a rule whereby a player must call a foul on himself if he fouled, then he will do so.

Dennis

Where is this in the rules???

 

[SactownTom]

Where is this in the rules???

Very good question.

When I was using this rule a few years ago, it was in the World Standardized Rules. Seems that the WSR is now a 'REFEREE" set of rules. All the WSR tournaments are played with referees. There are no instructions about 'unrefereed' games because the world uses Referees when competing.

The USA is the only country that is prodomitely 'cue ball fouls only' and has tournaments without referees. WSR is 'all ball fouls' world wide, except in the USA.

This was a change to the rules after 2008. I have a copy of the old rules and will quote them later.

But, unlike the 'call goes to the shooter', which isn't in any rules, the non-shooting player is responsible for calling fouls in a unrefereed game. If they don't call fouls on their opponent, after the opponent leaves the table, and the incoming player shoots, the fouls are void. You must call a foul prior to the next shot or it is 'slept' 'snooze you loose' Player responsibility to communicate the foul.

Rule number 1.1 in the WSR... the player is responsible for knowing the rules.

 

[Tennessee Joe6]

I personally call fouls on myself---but I don't gamble for much, just chump change. So what's the difference? But I believe it is the responsibility for the non-shooter to (1) know the rules, (2) pay attention to the game (3) call the fouls and (4) not consider this a moral issue.

If this is a concern to you, then agree with the opponent before the match. Or if you are a little unscrupulous and bigger than your opponent, don't bring it up until you are loosing and then go crazy.

 

[ironman]

Steve,

When I was playing John McCue at your place I shot a ball and he was turned around lighting a cigarrette. He turned around when I shot a slow moving safety and he never saw anything hit a rail although a couple of balls did. He took a chance anyway, just to see how stupid I was. He said "did you get a rail there?". I told him that if he had been watching the shot then he would know. That ended the conversation.

As to your question: I have never and would never fail to see my opponents shot and then ask what happened. It's my possible loss for not paying attention to his shot.

Dennis

LMAO,,,,the two dubest questions I hever hear playing one pocket,,,
! Did you get a rail??
2. Whos' break is it??

 

[ironman]

Artie, for years youve said all your cared about was getting the money. Thats who you are but that does mean everyone who play the game feels the same way and it doesnt mean that a player who calls a foul on himself is a sucker. Rather it means he is a man that can be trusted, a man with integrity. To a lot of people that is very important, more important than losing a ball or losing a game.

John asked a question and he got a few response. its his decision how he chooses to play. Keith

Not to be disrespectful at all, But as the brave said,"walk a mile in my moccosins and then judge me"!!
in other words, go busted with this game and sleep a couple of days in your car and the perspective will almost always change!!

 

[androd]

LMAO,,,,the two dubest questions I hever hear playing one pocket,,,
! Did you get a rail??
2. Whos' break is it??

Agreed
better statements
#1 spot one up
#2 rack'em up

Louis
Good to see you post. Are you playing these days ?

Rodney Stephens
PS, Old age is a little hard on my stamina, but I rarely miss a ball.

 

[John Brumback]

Agreed
better statements
#1 spot one up
#2 rack'em up

Louis
Good to see you post. Are you playing these days ?

Rodney Stephens
PS, Old age is a little hard on my stamina, but I rarely miss a ball.

You guys been around the block a time or two,aint ya?
I'm taking notes.hehehe.John B.

 

[cleary]

Thanks,this Is a good post.If we don't have a ref we better ref ourselves.Very good thinking. I hope you don't try to make a living out there playing a "gentlemans" game. You might just go hungry or worse...sleep In the car,or I should say truck.Cars sleep better than trucks.imo But I have done both.John B.

I fully understand when you are out trying to 'make a living', you gotta get money by any means necessary. While, thats not my style, I can see why people would have that approach or mentality. Kill or be killed...

I guess my question is, how would you not consider yourself cheating? If you double hit the cueball, didn't get to a rail etc, how is that any different than just picking up a ball and moving it because you know they arn't watching? You may not have fouled on purpose, but you are trying to get away with it on purpose, right?

 

[John Brumback]

I fully understand when you are out trying to 'make a living', you gotta get money by any means necessary. While, thats not my style, I can see why people would have that approach or mentality. Kill or be killed...

I guess my question is, how would you not consider yourself cheating? If you double hit the cueball, didn't get to a rail etc, how is that any different than just picking up a ball and moving it because you know they arn't watching? You may not have fouled on purpose, but you are trying to get away with it on purpose, right?

Ummm, You haven't read the whole thread,have you?.Go back and read somemore and you might find out that most If not all the best and most knowledgeble players here will try to tell you that this thread has nothing to
do with cheating.It's mostly about playing without a ref. Well,and about your opp.paying attention to the game while your at the table.Oh yeah,all most forgot,It's not about fudging cueballs hoping no one saw you.It's not about
all that cheating and stuff like that.No really,go back and read all of It.Thanks,
John B.PS:Allmost forgot this too..I don't cheat or steal.

 

[John Brumback]

I fully understand when you are out trying to 'make a living', you gotta get money by any means necessary. While, thats not my style, I can see why people would have that approach or mentality. Kill or be killed...

I guess my question is, how would you not consider yourself cheating? If you double hit the cueball, didn't get to a rail etc, how is that any different than just picking up a ball and moving it because you know they arn't watching? You may not have fouled on purpose, but you are trying to get away with it on purpose, right?

No No No,not by "any means necessary" that's not even close.Thanks,
John B.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Fouls on myself

Fouls on myself

I once called a lot of fouls on myself. But I was drunk at the time and in a chicken coop. Rhode Island Red, Henny Penny, Rooster Cogburn, Chick Corea, those fouls were all over me and I called out to them to get off of me.

Beard

 

[fred bentivegna]

How about...

How about...

LMAO,,,,the two dumbest questions I hever hear playing one pocket,,,
! Did you get a rail??
2. Whos' break is it??

...Did I pay you?

Beard

When you are seconds away from scoring with your date, "You do love me, dont you?"