evergruven
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SPOILER ALERT...video jumps to match in progress
why is this a foul? (can salim vs. sky woodward)
- Thread starter evergruven
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vapros
Verified Member
In close quarters like that, you can only move the cue ball forward if you hit it more than once.
cincy_kid
Verified Member
he double hit the CB.
evergruven
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thanks..so was he trying to get the cb to stay in the stack, but just couldn't get his cue out the way?
crabbcatjohn
Verified Member
It looked like he jerked and pushed through it by accident. Either that or he shot it wrong trying to do too much..
vapros
Verified Member
Super tough to avoid that foul, shooting into the 4 ball. A little nip-draw might have been possible, but I expect he would have fouled anyway by failing to hit a rail. I think he made a bad choice by trying the shot.
evergruven
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sheldon
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Dennis "Whitey" Young
Verified Member
6.6 Intentional fouls: Standard intentional fouls are an accepted part of One Pocket tactics as long as they are played by use of a legal stroke, such as by lightly touching the cue ball with the cue tip; by rolling the cue ball to a new location without regard for legal contact with either an object ball or a
cushion; by pocket scratching the cue ball; or by using a legal jump technique to force the cue ball off the table. Standard intentional fouls performed using a legal stroke and cue tip contact are penalized as standard fouls.
6.6.1 Use of an illegal technique: However, if the shooter employs an illegal technique to their advantage, such as pushing, intentionally double-hitting, use of anything other than the cue tip to shoot, or an illegal prolonged cue contact to wedge/trap, direct or redirect the cue ball or any object balls, such as within the stack or jawed pocket, these acts are considered serious fouls. The offending player may be penalized for a serious foul under the general rules of unsportsmanlike conduct. ref: 6.6.2 Serious fouls
6.6.2 Serious fouls: If the ruling is that a serious foul has occurred, in addition to the standard foul the official may further penalize a player at their discretion. If there is no official available, players will need to come to agreement themselves as to the level of penalty to assess the shooter. If it is possible to restore the balls, then the foul may be penalized (a) as a standard foul, with opponent’s option of restoration.
The following penalty levels progress from (a) through (c) depending on the seriousness of the offense, and whether the shooter has been issued a prior warning. A prior warning warrants an escalation of penalty. In this context a “prior warning” may mean a prior offense, a pre-tournament announcement or a player agreement prior to a match.
(a) Assess a standard foul penalty, and a warning to the shooter.
(b) Assess a standard foul penalty, and opponent receives the option of ball in hand.
(c) Loss of game.
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evergruden, this is the official OP.org rule for your foul question. From this you figure it out what is the appropriate action.
Note: in this instance Skylar did not get trapped by this illegal stroke, but what if he did, and it rises to a serious foul. The balls are not probably reasonably restorable, which also makes it a serious foul. So is the offense (a), (b), or (c). No referee, players decide.
For me, if I got trapped by this ugly shot, I'd ask of my opponent for (b) option of ball in hand behind the line. hopefully an argument does not happen! Whitey
cushion; by pocket scratching the cue ball; or by using a legal jump technique to force the cue ball off the table. Standard intentional fouls performed using a legal stroke and cue tip contact are penalized as standard fouls.
6.6.1 Use of an illegal technique: However, if the shooter employs an illegal technique to their advantage, such as pushing, intentionally double-hitting, use of anything other than the cue tip to shoot, or an illegal prolonged cue contact to wedge/trap, direct or redirect the cue ball or any object balls, such as within the stack or jawed pocket, these acts are considered serious fouls. The offending player may be penalized for a serious foul under the general rules of unsportsmanlike conduct. ref: 6.6.2 Serious fouls
6.6.2 Serious fouls: If the ruling is that a serious foul has occurred, in addition to the standard foul the official may further penalize a player at their discretion. If there is no official available, players will need to come to agreement themselves as to the level of penalty to assess the shooter. If it is possible to restore the balls, then the foul may be penalized (a) as a standard foul, with opponent’s option of restoration.
The following penalty levels progress from (a) through (c) depending on the seriousness of the offense, and whether the shooter has been issued a prior warning. A prior warning warrants an escalation of penalty. In this context a “prior warning” may mean a prior offense, a pre-tournament announcement or a player agreement prior to a match.
(a) Assess a standard foul penalty, and a warning to the shooter.
(b) Assess a standard foul penalty, and opponent receives the option of ball in hand.
(c) Loss of game.
-----------------------------------------
evergruden, this is the official OP.org rule for your foul question. From this you figure it out what is the appropriate action.
Note: in this instance Skylar did not get trapped by this illegal stroke, but what if he did, and it rises to a serious foul. The balls are not probably reasonably restorable, which also makes it a serious foul. So is the offense (a), (b), or (c). No referee, players decide.
For me, if I got trapped by this ugly shot, I'd ask of my opponent for (b) option of ball in hand behind the line. hopefully an argument does not happen! Whitey
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crabbcatjohn
Verified Member
"For me, if I got trapped by this ugly shot, I'd ask of my opponent for (b) option of ball in hand behind the line. hopefully an argument does not happen! Whitey"
He didn't intentionally try to trap him using a illegal stroke. Yes, you would get a argument from every player in the country.
He didn't intentionally try to trap him using a illegal stroke. Yes, you would get a argument from every player in the country.
cincy_kid
Verified Member
I can't ever imagine a situation where me or my opponent gets ball in hand behind the line in one pocket unless the CB falls in a pocket. No one would ever go for that unless it was discussed before hand and even then I think it would very tough to enforce. Just my 2 cents.
Dennis "Whitey" Young
Verified Member
John and Cincy Kid,
You made my point! For you see there is an argument.
By rule, when a player illegally pushes/double hit and traps the cue ball in the stack, and the balls cannot be restored, it is then considered a 'serious foul'. When no referee is there to judge whether to impose penalty (a), (b), or (c) then the players have to decide on which penalty. Which I have previously stated would/could lead to an argument. No one wants that, especially when playing a player, you generally play with.
Commonly, and by the original rule of 2004, a player that does a illegal double hit that gently buries the cb within the stack results in the incoming player having the option to restore the balls, and it is then their turn. I think this rule is fair.
So, I would take it up with Steve, if you do not like the rule. IMO - OP.org should decide upon the penalty so the players do not have to engage in deciding it, of which pits player against player, and as you see can lend to an argument. I wish Steve would re-think this rule.
Whitey
You made my point! For you see there is an argument.
By rule, when a player illegally pushes/double hit and traps the cue ball in the stack, and the balls cannot be restored, it is then considered a 'serious foul'. When no referee is there to judge whether to impose penalty (a), (b), or (c) then the players have to decide on which penalty. Which I have previously stated would/could lead to an argument. No one wants that, especially when playing a player, you generally play with.
Commonly, and by the original rule of 2004, a player that does a illegal double hit that gently buries the cb within the stack results in the incoming player having the option to restore the balls, and it is then their turn. I think this rule is fair.
So, I would take it up with Steve, if you do not like the rule. IMO - OP.org should decide upon the penalty so the players do not have to engage in deciding it, of which pits player against player, and as you see can lend to an argument. I wish Steve would re-think this rule.
Whitey
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crabbcatjohn
Verified Member
The current rule looks fine to me. If I were the referee in the match I would have called it the same way. Simple foul..
Dennis "Whitey" Young
Verified Member
Well, you dodge the scenario of the hypothetical question of what if the incoming player would of been trapped in the stack, and Cincy Kid now agrees with the rule and Ball in Hand is now ok with him. Thanks guys, for I got a good laugh out of that, seriously.
But one thing I'll absolutely take away from this, and what I am convinced of, is the fact you would of been a better fit on the rule committee than I. I also believe whole heartily that you guys would of completed it in a week or two, and the outcome would of been just 'fine'. Seriously!
I'll give you a like and a thumbs up on your above statement. If I was the referee I would of ruled the same way also, for he was not trapped, and even had a shot.
thanks, Whitey
cincy_kid
Verified Member
Not sure what you mean whitey but ball in hand would not be ok with me. I agreed with John that I would have called it as a regular foul. Sorry if it appears otherwise.
crabbcatjohn
Verified Member
Doesn't matter if he was trapped or not. It wasn't an intentional unsportsman like shot as stated in the rule.
Dennis "Whitey" Young
Verified Member
Damn John, read the rule! It states that when the cue ball is pushed/double hit/illegal prolonged cue tip contact time and it traps the cb within the stack it is a serious foul, if the balls cannot be restored, and that can be penalized as an unsportsmanlike act. Penalty a, b, or c.
You cannot say; "oh the guy did not really mean to intentional do that". It is the illegal act of trapping that you have to base it upon. If the balls can be restored then it is a common foul, if they cannot be restored then it rises to the level of a serious foul. As in this case if the cb was trapped.
This rule by the way encompasses Intentional fouls, BIH-BTL, and Cue ball foul only. All lumped into one.
My problem with the rule, is that it is to complex, and when there is no referee it pits player against player as to what penalty to impose. Which, as proof by our posts lends to an argument. I believe BIH-BTL as with Cue ball foul only and Intentional fouls, should be completed within their rule. And I believe the governing power should be the one making the decision of what penalty to impose, so players do not have to.
That is enough, no more, please!
Whitey
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crabbcatjohn
Verified Member
It says intentionally double hitting. I can read thank you.. and yes you are reading the rule wrong. Thats why the word intentionally was used instead of ANY as you read it...Sorry.
Dennis "Whitey" Young
Verified Member
John, I give up, for I cannot match a guy that can tell when a guy intentionally double hits and when they unintentionally double hits, your just to psychic. You are still trapped either way! Your right! It takes a psychic to read it correctly. My Bad!
So, to undo an illegal trap of the cb, you say; that is alright buddy, I know you did not mean to intentionally trap me in the stack with that illegal double hit foul. Give him a pat on the back, as you lose the game!
Many players have abused illegally trapping players within the stack.
Whitey
crabbcatjohn
Verified Member
I think your views deserve their own thread in the main forum. This will allow you to communicate directly with the people who modified those rules 5 or 6 yrs ago. They might agree with you.
I didn't write those rules, but I remember the discussions and why certain rules were written. Getting snide with me isn't helping here.
As a tournament director of some of our past one pocket events, according to the rules as I understand them, I would have called a simple foul.
Your welcome to challenge my ruling in this case, in its own thread, be it right or wrong. I'm open to other members views.
If your again asking me to change the rules like you did in the bank forum I'm really not interested. I am in no way qualified or entitled in any aspect of the game to do that...
I didn't write those rules, but I remember the discussions and why certain rules were written. Getting snide with me isn't helping here.
As a tournament director of some of our past one pocket events, according to the rules as I understand them, I would have called a simple foul.
Your welcome to challenge my ruling in this case, in its own thread, be it right or wrong. I'm open to other members views.
If your again asking me to change the rules like you did in the bank forum I'm really not interested. I am in no way qualified or entitled in any aspect of the game to do that...