efren vs nick

[lll]

ok for doc and miller
doc nick for some reason didnt 2 rail kick at the 9
he took an intenetional scratch, efren then took an intentional scratch.
i'll show the sequence then its nicks shot
what would you do???

 

[lll]

ok nick did this
he owes one
and efren did that

 

[lll]

heres how efren left it for nick
its nicks shot
what would you do??
isnt being stuck in the stack fun???

 

[gulfportdoc]

heres how efren left it for nick
its nicks shot
what would you do??
isnt being stuck in the stack fun???
View attachment 2919

Well, if Nick doesn't like kicking at the 14, he might try thinning the 7 or the 3 and rolling the CB up behind the 10 ball (the ball by the head corner pocket on Nick's side). An exchange like that might eventually result in allowing Nick to clear out the 14 ball from Efren's hole.

Otherwise he could shoot Billy's shot, going two rails off the 7. Nick should never have played an intentional in his last inning, IMO.

Actually Nick is in pretty good shape here. All the balls not in the stack can be made in Nick's pocket. Whereas only the 14 can be made in Efren's.

Doc

 

[Miller]

three rails to put the 14 back in the rack...just kidding. i'll take a stab at it. little high left real soft.

 

[lll]

I'm not Larry but kicking two rails softly into the 14 ball would be my first option. I would also look at shooting off the 7 ball and sending the cue ball two rails under the 14 ball, seems like there's good bridging room, a little risky but if I felt that I could control the cue ball I would shoot it. If I was even a little unsure I would kick two rails. Plus I really wouldn't want to move the 7 ball from my side of the table, but since the 1 ball doesn't bank I may do it. But I wouldn't like doing it. Kicking two rails is the better shot.

If the 14 ball was positioned closer to the side rail it would be a better kick, it would allow you to kick with a little more speed and offer you a better chance to hide the cue ball behind it, but it's still my #1 option. It's also important when kicking shots that are positioned like this one is to kick softly and short. That way you don't make the mistake of going long and selling out, and you also give yourself a better chance of freezing to the bottom or side of the ball your kicking at. (14 ball)

Billy I.

i quoted billy but this question is for doc and everyone else
if you were to try the 2 rail kick how do YOU figure out how to hit it???
i really think the answer to this question will be VERY educational for many of us
thanks for your honest replies
those that want to say i "feel it" go home
you all use the diamonds in some way explain how you figure out this kick please??

 

[lll]

i quoted billy but this question is for doc and everyone else
if you were to try the 2 rail kick how do YOU figure out how to hit it???
i really think the answer to this question will be VERY educational for many of us
thanks for your honest replies
those that want to say i "feel it" go home
you all use the diamonds in some way explain how you figure out this kick please??

cmon
artie ,sjd,dennis, GHOST,bstroud,freddy,billy i., grady, j, brumback,
etc
all of you

please answer this question

 

[gulfportdoc]

i quoted billy but this question is for doc and everyone else
if you were to try the 2 rail kick how do YOU figure out how to hit it???
i really think the answer to this question will be VERY educational for many of us
thanks for your honest replies
those that want to say i "feel it" go home
you all use the diamonds in some way explain how you figure out this kick please??

To be honest, most guys DO just "feel" where to aim for the two rail kick. It comes from years of playing those kinds of shots; and in some cases, experience at playing 3C billiards.

There are a number of kicking systems (Joe Vallipiano's come to mind) which are very well thought out. I think there probably is some discussion of his systems on the other forums. He has a video series out as well.

The ball tracks are probably covered in Beard's book, and likely in Koehler's books as well.

But otherwise you can get close on the angles by figuring out where to hit the first rail to get the CB to the cross-corner. Then you can imagine how much further down the rail to hit in order to contact the 2nd rail in the spot which would take you to the target ball. Not a scientific system, but it gets a guy in the ball park.

Doc

 

[petie]

i quoted billy but this question is for doc and everyone else
if you were to try the 2 rail kick how do YOU figure out how to hit it???
i really think the answer to this question will be VERY educational for many of us
thanks for your honest replies
those that want to say i "feel it" go home
you all use the diamonds in some way explain how you figure out this kick please??

One easy system if you are going to go in close to the corner is parrallel in--parallel out. This system states that any shot into the corner on one side (say the long rail side) will return off the second rail in a line parellel to the line it went in at. For sighting you just point your cue stick from your cue ball to the long rail where you feel it and hold that angle as you move down to the end rail and you will see the path the ball will take. You can adjust and try sighting again until the parallel line from the cue ball to the side rail and the parallel line from the end rail go through the ball you wish to hit. Good kickers like Efren and Nick can hit left side, right side, or center of the intended ball.

Having said all of this. I don't think I would have shot this shot.

 

[SJDinPHX]

To be honest, most guys DO just "feel" where to aim for the two rail kick. It comes from years of playing those kinds of shots;
Doc

Larry,

The reason I don't respond much to those kinds of queries, is I fall into the group Doc is describing. I can honestly say, I have never used any type of syatem, for any phase of my pool game.

The shot you are describing (2 rails at the 14 ball) is made tougher by being over a ball. Were it not for that, in my day...I would bet even money, I would hit the 14 fairly solid, and drive it uptable, or towards the stack.

Not saying for some people, a "system" might make them more comfortable while over the shot...but I have always felt more comfortable by just "feel"
This goes for all types of shots. When I was turning out, there was no such thing as CTE, CID, BHE, "pivoting" or all the other alphabet soup you hear these days...Thats my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

PS..I would be very surprised if most players, anywhere near my age, or even quite a bit younger, do not "feel" the same way...

PPS..I also agree with Petie..That would not have been my choice of shots in that spot..I would be coming off the 7 or 8, uptable somewhere..

 

[lll]

Larry,

The reason I don't respond much to those kinds of queries, is I fall into the group Doc is describing. I can honestly say, I have never used any type of syatem, for any phase of my pool game.

The shot you are describing (2 rails at the 14 ball) is made tougher by being over a ball. Were it not for that, in my day...I would bet even money, I would hit the 14 fairly solid, and drive it uptable, or towards the stack.

Not saying for some people, a "system" might make them more comfortable while over the shot...but I have always felt more comfortable by just "feel"
This goes for all types of shots. When I was turning out, there was no such thing as CTE, CID, BHE, "pivoting" or all the other alphabet soup you hear these days...Thats my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

PS..I would be very surprised if most players, anywhere near my age, or even quite a bit younger, do not "feel" the same way...

lets not confuse or co-mingle cte with what im asking
for example petie gave a way (system) of parrallel lines to get an idea of where to hit the kick
i think some would use the diamonds as guides then let "feel" take over for adjustments
was curious how some of you figure it out.

i guesss i should go back to freddy's book to find the (an) answer

 

[petie]

I should say that this 'system' is approximate as stated. To be more accurate, the two lines you think are supposed to be 'parallel' actually converge at a point away form the table. Good players often identify these points when they are warming up so they can use them if the right shot comes up in a game. I seem to remember seeing in a Grady Mathews tape that when he went to Chicago to play Freddie, he would notice on the second day that Freddie had moved the table just a little to throw the convergence points off. Most systems are meant to double check feel or in some cases make it more accurate. I'm a feel player too. So were many of the authors of systems and books on systems.

 

[SJDinPHX]

lets not confuse or co-mingle cte with what im asking.
I was curious how some of you figure it out.

i guesss i should go back to freddy's book to find the (an) answer

Larry,

I'm not confused, I gave you the most honest answer I could... To me ALL systems pale in comparison to educated "feel"...But thats just me...If you believe the answer can be found in a book...good hunting pard.... Sorry, but I would not trade my method, for all the books and videos ever put together...Most with a profit motive...(Not that theres anything wrong with that)...neither would most of the authors..

 

[lll]

Larry,

I'm not confused, I gave you the most honest answer I could... To me ALL systems pale in comparison to educated "feel"...But thats just me...If you believe the answer can be found in a book...good hunting pard. Sorry, but I would not trade my method, for all the books and videos ever put together...Most with a profit motive...(Not that theres anything wrong with that)...neither would most of the authors..

there is an old saying
you cant teach experience
and i beleive it
but lets use the 3 rail kick to the corner as an example
everyone here knows if the cue is in front of your pocket and you want to kick in the ball in front of your opponents pocket
you shoot towards the 2nd diamond up from the corner pocket up table from
his pocket with running english and you should go 3 rails to his corner
(based on cloth, humidity ,table etc adjustments need to be made)

if the ball you wanted to hit was one diamond away from the corner on the short rail you would change your aiming spot one diamond and go for the first diamond up from the up table corner

if the ball was a diamond away on the long rail you would change your aim again by a diamond to diamond 3.
this works in fractions also.and is pretty precise.
when you have to "tweak" it you go by feel but you have a starting point reference point. at least thats how i (a mere mortal) do it.

i was curious to pick the brains of players more experienced and better than me. especially with the 2 rail kick needing to be hit in this case

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

steve you were close enough to get a cookie
efren of course did a little more he had the solid come off the rail and hit the one moving it also like this
good eye

also heres how he left it

I think Nick shot the wrong shot here. I would've shot the 10 in the corner, rolled the cueball forward & let Efren shoot the 14 if he wants. Of course, then I'd be down 2 to 0 instead of 0 to -1. I guess 0 to -1 is a better score for me than 2-0. Maybe Nick had a plan .

P.S. Two-rail kick at the 14, are you guys on drugs? You've seen too many WEI tables. Did you notice how far the 14 is off the rail? I didn't think so. Go back to school girls.

P.S.S. This is game 5 and although some say the score of the set doesn't matter, I say they are full of shit.

 

[lll]

I think Nick shot the wrong shot here. I would've shot the 10 in the corner, rolled the cueball forward & let Efren shoot the 14 if he wants. Of course, then I'd be down 2 to 0 instead of 0 to -1. I guess 0 to -1 is a better score for me than 2-0. Maybe Nick had a plan .

P.S. Two-rail kick at the 14, are you guys on drugs? You've seen too many WEI tables. Did you notice how far the 14 is off the rail? I didn't think so. Go back to school girls.

P.S.S. This is game 5 and although some say the score of the set doesn't matter, I say they are full of shit.

View attachment 2933

dennis i must say you dont you have no problem telling us what you really think

 

[lll]

well nick didnt shoot the 14 but he did take another intentional scratch to roll down there
like this

 

[lll]

leaving efren to shoot now

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

dennis i must say you dont you have no problem telling us what you really think

Larry,

As you know I have this DVD. Before I put it in the player to see what happened I decided I'd shoot he 10 in and roll the cueball forward and let Efren shoot the 14. But then I realized the score would be 2-0 if Efren shot & made the 14 but it would only be 0 to -1 if Efren kicked into the stack and took a foul, but I would be on the 1st foul. Bearing that in mind, Nick shot the right shot, guessing that Efren would take a foul and spot one up, but nobody yet has suggested that Nick should've not shot the 10 in because Efren would be up 2-0 if he then made the 14.

Nobody in their right mind would shoot two rails to hit the 14 with it that far off the rail, nobody, not even Efren.

If I was gambling I would shoot the 10 in every time but in a tournament , game 5, I would do what Nick did but I sure as hell would think it through and know why I was doing it. He was trying to get Efren to take a foul and spot the one back up that he had. A great move on Nicks part and very good thinking also. I did not watch any more of the DVD so I don't know what happened a couple of shots down the road.

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

well nick didnt shoot the 14 but he did take another intentional scratch to roll down there
like this
View attachment 2934

Before everybody starts responding to this post with incorrect info, Nick hit the 7 ball on this safety and did not take a foul here. He got a rail.