Truman Hogue vs. "Piggy Bank" Rogers 2001 D.C.C.

John Brumback

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,747
I must have been playing in a different universe all this time. 9 foot cut shot from frozen on the rail have always seemed to me to be difficult.:confused:
There are only about 40 ways the shot can go wrong.
John B, you keep giving shot choices from the point of view of the best bank shot, long range ball maker in the world. And Billy I is looking at things from his 70s persona.

Billy, you keep talking about considering the speed of the player determining the percentage of the shot. I considered myself a pretty good player at one time and I will say, that at no time would I be comfortable shooting at that 7 ball from a frozen point off of the rail and 9 feet away!

Beard

PS Please dont anybody laugh at my choices, like when I said I would take a scratch. :mad:That is very disrespectful and you are only highlighting your own ignorance. A really smart guy would pay attention and ask themselves, "Who do I know that knows the bank game, strategy-wise better than the Beard? And what is behind the things he says he would do?"

If you find him, let me know please. I would appreciate putting a name on this "phantom." It sure aint anybody that I have ever been in the Booth with.

I have been giving out gold on this forum and usually getting nothing but shit back for it. Anybody really paying attention to the concepts I have covered has a good chance of raising his game a ball or more -- and that includes good players.

Beard
Fred..forgive me.. for looking at it from a winning or winner's piont of veiw.And thanks for the good coment too.:):lol.John B.
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
Maybe I should apologize...

Maybe I should apologize...

...for not wanting to play,"get it over with pool." My credo is to grit my teeth and make a commitment that, "I aint gonna lose it on this shot, pool.":lol

Beard
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,534
...for not wanting to play,"get it over with pool." My credo is to grit my teeth and make a commitment that, "I aint gonna lose it on this shot, pool.

Beard
Fred, you're making this out for people to believe that the shooter is confronted with an impasse.:sorry When a player is confronted with a situation where there is nothing within reason to do, then taking a scratch would be a consideration. But to even consider taking a scratch from this position is imo, a form of dogging it. There are four options that I can see that are much better than taking a scratch. Two of the options have already been brought up, but there's two other options that are good options as well..

The best option would be the most popular one, and that is to pocket the 7 ball, either of two ways, straight in, or rail first. The second option would be the one you suggested by going rail first, thinly striking the 7 ball and then going three rails back up table. The third option would be (imo not as good as the other two) to cut the spotted ball into the pocket (to the shooters left) and go two cushions up table with the cue ball. If this option is chosen you must be conscious of the possible scratch, two cushions to the top pocket.:eek: Understanding this, you must hit this shot with a softer speed to fall short of the corner pocket. The fourth option is imo a good option, i'll explain. :) The 6 ball is laying on the angle to shoot it straight in the corner pocket...softly...by slightly favoring the outside of the pocket, hitting the shot in this fashion will reduce the sell out factor. The cue ball will float to the side rail and end up in a safe position. And if you happen to pocket the 6 ball it will be spotted behind the 9 ball with absolutely zero banks available for the shooter.

Taking a scratch is a bad decision, but not as bad as a decision as banking the 9 ball. Your make percentage of banking the 9 ball and pocketing it is very slim, especially with the speed you need to hit it with shooting off the end rail.:eek:

You my old friend are a very stubborn one, when the whole room sides against an opinion, no matter who's opinion, I think it's time to turn it loose.:sorry

Dr. Bill
 

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
15,759
You my old friend are a very stubborn one, when the whole room sides against an opinion, no matter who's opinion, I think it's time to turn it loose.:sorry

Dr. Bill
i think in my case
when the whole room ignores your opinion....:eek:
like hyman roth said
"just let it go".......:D
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
I must have been playing in a different universe all this time. 9 foot cut shot from frozen on the rail have always seemed to me to be difficult.:confused:
There are only about 40 ways the shot can go wrong.
John B, you keep giving shot choices from the point of view of the best bank shot, long range ball maker in the world. And Billy I is looking at things from his 70s persona.


Beard
I am looking at it from the point of view of a goofball who didn't play great but learned how to play from a couple of the best around here. McCue and I played on sight for years, when we weren't playing one-pocket. I played countless "cousins" of a guy who came to the room and I never saw anyone take a foul, that I remember.

As I see it the only thing you gain (with certainty) by taking a foul here would be to put the shot on my back. I can either foul in return or shoot. I would shoot the 7, in which case you are gambling that I make a fatal error and sell something out to you.

If I make an error and sell out a shot then your gamble paid off but you knocked yourself off the hill to get the shot and you aren't guaranteed to get a good shot anyway. There are now two balls on the spot and the 6 blocks one side pocket.

If I execute the shot on the 7 like I should most of the time then you will have knocked yourself off the hill and you are shooting from the endrail and have no good shot with three balls on the spot.

If you take a foul and I foul in return there will be three balls on the spot, you aren't on the hill anymore and it's your shot. What have you gained? With the exception of having given me an opportunity to make a mistake which I realize is sometimes warranted but I don't think it is in this case.

Let's all remember that it's the different opinions and ways of looking at things and presenting these ideas that makes these simple layouts interesting. No need for hurt feelings or "my way or the highway" type thinking. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. It's the differences that I find interesting. Top players having opposing points of view on a shot and stating their reasons is more interesting than all of you agreeing every time I post a layout.

I guess I'd better post up Piggy's shot soon, before blows are thrown:p

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
i think in my case
when the whole room ignores your opinion....:eek:
like hyman roth said
"just let it go".......:D
Nobody ignored your shot. JB gave you a reply. You can't shoot the 6, you can't shoot the ball on the spot. You have to shoot the 7 (one way or another) or take a foul. Simple.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
What would be wrong with shooting the 7 straight in and leaving the cue near the chalk on the near end rail. A tough shot for sure but there aren't a lot of good shots here.

shw
For better or worse you win a cookie:). He hit it so good the 7 didn't even touch the side rail:eek:. He did think about a couple of options for over a minute though.

PB1.jpg

PB2.jpg


Here's how he left it for Truman:

CapturedPicture_7.Jpeg
 

Banks

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
386
I liked the 7, too, but thought it may be too close to the rail to let the CB float down and would instead bounce more towards the middle and sell out. Oh well. I've gotta start bringing my own cookies to this party. :(
 

wgcp

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2004
Messages
1,739
The question I would have is did Truman now make the nine in the side pocket? It sure looks like a makeable shot...
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,534
noteworthy point

noteworthy point

For better or worse you win a cookie:). He hit it so good the 7 didn't even touch the side rail:eek:. He did think about a couple of options for over a minute though.

View attachment 5588

View attachment 5589


Here's how he left it for Truman:

View attachment 5590
I would like to bring up this noteworthy point before we lose this picture.

I really like the closed bridge Piggy used to shoot this shot with. The closed bridge enables you to strike the cue ball from an angle that will not only lessen the chance of miscueing, but will also enable you to put more speed into the shot with less effort. (slight elevation) Try this technique and decide for yourself if you like it.:D

This shot can also be used with an open bridge, but I feel the closed bridge offers more stability to the shot.


Dr. Bill
 
Last edited:

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
I could go for the....

I could go for the....

Fred, you're making this out for people to believe that the shooter is confronted with an impasse.:sorry When a player is confronted with a situation where there is nothing within reason to do, then taking a scratch would be a consideration. But to even consider taking a scratch from this position is imo, a form of dogging it. There are four options that I can see that are much better than taking a scratch. Two of the options have already been brought up, but there's two other options that are good options as well..

The best option would be the most popular one, and that is to pocket the 7 ball, either of two ways, straight in, or rail first. The second option would be the one you suggested by going rail first, thinly striking the 7 ball and then going three rails back up table. The third option would be (imo not as good as the other two) to cut the spotted ball into the pocket (to the shooters left) and go two cushions up table with the cue ball. If this option is chosen you must be conscious of the possible scratch, two cushions to the top pocket.:eek: Understanding this, you must hit this shot with a softer speed to fall short of the corner pocket. The fourth option is imo a good option, i'll explain. :) The 6 ball is laying on the angle to shoot it straight in the corner pocket...softly...by slightly favoring the outside of the pocket, hitting the shot in this fashion will reduce the sell out factor. The cue ball will float to the side rail and end up in a safe position. And if you happen to pocket the 6 ball it will be spotted behind the 9 ball with absolutely zero banks available for the shooter.

Taking a scratch is a bad decision, but not as bad as a decision as banking the 9 ball. Your make percentage of banking the 9 ball and pocketing it is very slim, especially with the speed you need to hit it with shooting off the end rail.:eek:

You my old friend are a very stubborn one, when the whole room sides against an opinion, no matter who's opinion, I think it's time to turn it loose.:sorry

Dr. Bill
...Six. Rolling it in. I could go for that. Worst you could do was not make it and leave a bad 3 in the side or cross corner twice with the seven, or a, not-a-hanger straight back on the spot ball.

For now, I wont go into all the mental ramifications I employ for those rare times when I take a scratch in bank pool. Plus I never said I would, I said I might. After "finding" the 6 ball shot I wouldnt take the scratch.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
A.

A.

I am looking at it from the point of view of a goofball who didn't play great but learned how to play from a couple of the best around here. McCue and I played on sight for years, when we weren't playing one-pocket. I played countless "cousins" of a guy who came to the room and I never saw anyone take a foul, that I remember.

As I see it the only thing you gain (with certainty) by taking a foul here would be to put the shot on my back. I can either foul in return or shoot. I would shoot the 7, in which case you are gambling that I make a fatal error and sell something out to you.

If I make an error and sell out a shot then your gamble paid off but you knocked yourself off the hill to get the shot and you aren't guaranteed to get a good shot anyway. There are now two balls on the spot and the 6 blocks one side pocket.

If I execute the shot on the 7 like I should most of the time then you will have knocked yourself off the hill and you are shooting from the endrail and have no good shot with three balls on the spot.

If you take a foul and I foul in return there will be three balls on the spot, you aren't on the hill anymore and it's your shot. What have you gained? With the exception of having given me an opportunity to make a mistake which I realize is sometimes warranted but I don't think it is in this case.

Let's all remember that it's the different opinions and ways of looking at things and presenting these ideas that makes these simple layouts interesting. No need for hurt feelings or "my way or the highway" type thinking. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. It's the differences that I find interesting. Top players having opposing points of view on a shot and stating their reasons is more interesting than all of you agreeing every time I post a layout.

I guess I'd better post up Piggy's shot soon, before blows are thrown:p

Dennis
A. The price on somebody taking a scratch behind me is in the zillions. I dont think it has ever happened to me, ever. Plus, as I cited, I might take a scratch. There was a big chance that I would thinly rail first the 7. Now, on Billy's 6 ball suggestion, I would definitely do that first.

Those times when I take a scratch, my opponent is privy to an academy award performance. By the time that I am done, my opponent is seeing monsters in his corn flakes. I make sure that the situation appears much more "fraught with peril" than as the case may be.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
The question in Piggy's mind...

The question in Piggy's mind...

For better or worse you win a cookie:). He hit it so good the 7 didn't even touch the side rail:eek:. He did think about a couple of options for over a minute though.

View attachment 5588

View attachment 5589


Here's how he left it for Truman:

View attachment 5590
...was probably more like, "What would Freddy never do?"

Beard

I figured he would take the wrong shot and he confirmed it.
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
Long suit

Long suit

I would like to bring up this noteworthy point before we lose this picture.

I really like the closed bridge Piggy used to shoot this shot with. The closed bridge enables you to strike the cue ball from an angle that will not only lessen the chance of miscueing, but will also enable you to put more speed into the shot with less effort. (slight elevation) Try this technique and decide for yourself if you like it.:D

This shot can also be used with an open bridge, but I feel the closed bridge offers more stability to the shot.


Dr. Bill

That is Piggy's long suit. Especially hitting a bank hard with the cue ball close to, or frozen to the rail.

Beard
 

John Brumback

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,747
Nobody ignored your shot. JB gave you a reply. You can't shoot the 6, you can't shoot the ball on the spot. You have to shoot the 7 (one way or another) or take a foul. Simple.
I can't imagin anyone taking an intentional foul in banks.A ball is to big and worth to much.Don't think i have ever seen it my lifetime.Maybe just maybe if you both were starting out in the hole then maybe it could happen however I will never take a foul if I don't have to.I would shoot straight up in the air before I would:lol John B.
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,534
I can't imagin anyone taking an intentional foul in banks.A ball is to big and worth to much.Don't think i have ever seen it my lifetime.Maybe just maybe if you both were starting out in the hole then maybe it could happen however I will never take a foul if I don't have to.I would shoot straight up in the air before I would:lol John B.
Come to think of it, I have never taken a foul playing bank pool either. And when I was a young player in my 20's I played a lot of bank pool, and played it pretty sporty, I might add.:D

Coming from you, a player that a ball isn't worth as much as a ball is to anyone else, say's quite a lot.

Playing one pocket taking a foul is not that uncommon. Fouls are taken to get out of trouble and to put your opponent in a pressure situation. Playing bank pool a foul should only be taken (if ever)to pass a complex situation and put it back on your opponent, especially if your opponent is a weak player whom you're giving up weight to. Then taking a foul would imo be more correct. Matter of fact that in that type of a scenario a top player can use the intentional as an effective weapon to put a weak player in a tough position to defend, but most importantly the ball position must warrant it.


Dr. Bill
 

Pelican

Verified Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
703
The Rest of the Story?

The Rest of the Story?

What did Truman do?

I say thin the nine and left the CB on the far end.

Pel
 
Top