skid

Cary

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except for the purists from the old days
centennial pool balls like gold crown tables are unfortunately the preference of the purists/old timers
diamonds dont play true to the billiard systems but seem to be the current norm
just like aramith or cyclops balls
i guess you can call it "progress" but it sucks to me
gold crown
centennial balls
billiliard systems
die hard......:)
jmho
icbw
:D
Trust me, I understand traditional. My home table is a GC3 & had old style green cloth until a couple months ago (recovered w/ Granero Basalt in blue & shocked my whole family). If Centennials were still American made by Brunswick, that's what I would be using. Unfortunately, had I been able to convince my self to pay four figures for the new, in-the-box original Centennials, I doubt anyone but me would have ever gotten to play them.
 

Cary

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When you hear something like this you have to ask yourself, "what would make that happen?". In this case, nothing - it just doesn't make any sense. Reminds me of The Beard's advice to grip more tightly to make certain bank shots go - Freddie was a great banker, but he believed some magic.

Like most things in pool "skid" is a pretty simple phenomenon, caused by the most obvious thing: excess friction between the CB and OB (usually because of something between them at the point of contact). Nothing you do with your grip, stroke or cue can make any difference (except the usual things that affect throw, like shooting harder/softer or with spin).

pj
chgo
Neither can follow through. Yet anything you do in the course of a stroke has an effect on everything that follows after, up to the point of impact and the infinitesimal period of dwell. It can definitely affect your consistency as well. Many of the things Freddy said did & do have exactly the RESULTS on a shot that he claimed. Because they alter your stroke and influence the impact. I admire you guys who are dedicated to finding out exactly why and how something happens but empirical testimony should not be dismissed because there is no apparent explanation.
 

gulfportdoc

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When you hear something like this you have to ask yourself, "what would make that happen?". In this case, nothing - it just doesn't make any sense. Reminds me of The Beard's advice to grip more tightly to make certain bank shots go - Freddie was a great banker, but he believed some magic.

Like most things in pool "skid" is a pretty simple phenomenon, caused by the most obvious thing: excess friction between the CB and OB (usually because of something between them at the point of contact). Nothing you do with your grip, stroke or cue can make any difference (except the usual things that affect throw, like shooting harder/softer or with spin).
pj
chgo
You're right, PJ. Most guys who have been playing for a long time have certain idiosyncracies that are unique to them which they come to believe have an actual effect on CB or OB reaction. But if another guy utilizes the same method, it doesn't work. The reason is because the original shooter's method had no validity whatsoever, except to mistakenly fool him into thinking that it did. But however much logic and example are presented to him, he'll go to the grave believing his system works. And......in effect, it does, for him..:) And Freddy, God bless him, had a million of 'em.

~Doc
 

beatle

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well we got two that understand hokus pocus is foolish to believe in.

but then many believe in ghosts.
 

Cary

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I have many ghosts that have followed me around for years.
 

Patrick Johnson

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Neither can follow through. Yet anything you do in the course of a stroke has an effect on everything that follows after, up to the point of impact and the infinitesimal period of dwell. It can definitely affect your consistency as well.
You sound like me - I've said the same thing many times.

Many of the things Freddy said did & do have exactly the RESULTS on a shot that he claimed. Because they alter your stroke and influence the impact. I admire you guys who are dedicated to finding out exactly why and how something happens but empirical testimony should not be dismissed because there is no apparent explanation.
Good advice.

But I can imagine how Freddy's grip can influence his hit on the CB, even if it only works for him. On the other hand, I can't imagine how anything that can be done with the cue can influence the likelihood of skid (other than known ways of avoiding throw).

pj
chgo
 

Cary

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Me neither, but come on, it's Efren. He's just reporting what he see's. It's up to engineering to figure out the "why".
 

El Chapo

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A few years back i was playing Shane Winters at the DCC. First match in the morning, the DCC guy just cleaned the table. He threw out a brand new set of those one eyed balls. Within seconds each one had a obvious fine coat of chalk all over them. I'm guessing it was static electricity that attracted it. We both had at least 3 horrible skids during the match. It was brutal... I've always noticed that skids occur the most when you use a little high outside on a softer hit. I saw the same thing during Mosconi a few yrs back. It seemed like the US players were getting more than a few skids and the Europe boys were playing those type shots harder to avoid the skids. The room i play at has gone down hill the last few yrs so the balls are always greasy and filthy along with the tables. Skids are pretty rare there...
For sure. The soft, rolling shot allows for maximum gearing. Gearing I would describe in pool as the ability for the balls to transfer friction. Ironically, a ton of spin doesn't allow friction to be transferred, whereas little bits allow much more. If you watch some brumback dvds where he has to get max torque in an ob he uses spin but just a touch to get the max torque out of it, he'll never load up on the English.

We get most (or all?) skids with high rolling, slow shots, imo, because the cb will tend to jump because that's the way it is rolling (up the face of the cb). With draw the cb is getting forced down and the ob is getting sent on its rolling path. I believe somewhere in there lies the answer. When the cb is able to go "up", and leave the surface of the cloth, the contact then becomes very unnatural. You can still make the ball, as frank mentioned, as I've had that many times, but the overall result of the shot is very unnatural. Think about what is happening: the cb is in contact with the ob, and during say half that contact time, it's rolling up the face of the ob. it could even collide again with the ob on its way back down! Any scenario where a cb is climing the ob is going to result is a very strange outcome. Again, we don't get skids with centerball or draw shots because the cb perhaps physically can't go up, as the friction is not doctating that. Maybe the key to figuring out skids is realizing they occur only/mostly? when the cb is able to rise up?

Here's the million dollar clue to the above sentiments (that high, slow rolling shots are predominantly the culprit): we should get a ton more skids with center ball hits, because that's when the friction is at or near the maximum. But we don't see that imo. I believe now that skids are caused by the cb rolling up and that causes everything.

I totally agree with you I've had sessions wi super clean balls, maybe a little power on the table and tons of skids. Maybe contact a spec of the powder in just the right spot with a slow high rolling ball is what does it.

Anyway, I'm just half guessing my way through it. Interesting discussion.
 
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LSJohn

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You're right, PJ. Most guys who have been playing for a long time have certain idiosyncracies that are unique to them which they come to believe have an actual effect on CB or OB reaction. But if another guy utilizes the same method, it doesn't work. The reason is because the original shooter's method had no validity whatsoever, except to mistakenly fool him into thinking that it did. But however much logic and example are presented to him, he'll go to the grave believing his system works. And......in effect, it does, for him..:) And Freddy, God bless him, had a million of 'em.

~Doc
Amen, Doc. It's that correlation/causation deal that confuses.

Sometimes even pretty good 3C players can fool themselves for 40 or years or so. :heh
 

straightback

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Anything that tends to make the balls not separate upon contact is associated with skids.
1. Chalk
2. Humidity
3. Soft, roughly half-ball hits
4. Inside English
5. Using a CB that is heavier than the ball set
6. New, slick cloth
7. Very polished balls
8. Very dirty balls

Someone mentioned grip - I would be surprised to learn that grip had anything to do with it.
 
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Patrick Johnson

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I believe now that skids are caused by the cb rolling up and that causes everything.
I think those skids (where the CB "climbs" the OB and hops a little) are just the most obvious ones, because they make a different sound. Skids can and do happen without the follow that causes that.

pj
chgo
 

straightback

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I think those skids (where the CB "climbs" the OB and hops a little) are just the most obvious ones, because they make a different sound. Skids can and do happen without the follow that causes that.

pj
chgo
Agreed. There seem to be at least main categories of skids - those caused by excess friction between "gearing" balls and those caused by either an excess or insufficient amount of texture on the cloth.
 

Patrick Johnson

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Agreed. There seem to be at least main categories of skids - those caused by excess friction between "gearing" balls and those caused by either an excess or insufficient amount of texture on the cloth.
If by "gearing" balls you mean balls rubbing against each other, I agree - and of course that can happen with or without sidespin on a cut shot, just by the CB rubbing the OB as it passes by.

But I'm doubting the condition of the cloth makes a difference in the direction the OB goes.

pj
chgo
 

straightback

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If by "gearing" balls you mean balls rubbing against each other, I agree - and of course that can happen with or without sidespin on a cut shot, just by the CB rubbing the OB as it passes by.

But I'm doubting the condition of the cloth makes a difference in the direction the OB goes.

pj
chgo
You've never seen excess skidding on brand new cloth??
 

poolisboring

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Can't say I've noticed more skids, but I do see object balls sliding more on slick cloth before they roll, which can look like skidding.

pj
chgo
thats why they have the banks at derby city first--the pockets play bigger on new cloth.....otherwise, might take a week to finish the banks alone......
 

El Chapo

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I think those skids (where the CB "climbs" the OB and hops a little) are just the most obvious ones, because they make a different sound. Skids can and do happen without the follow that causes that.

pj
chgo
I honestly can't even remember a time in 25 years of playing pool that I got a result as deviant as a slow high ball skin on a shot that had say draw on it. Is it possible I just didn't notice? I guess.

There's another thing to consider. Perhaps many the skids we see don't affect the outcome as much as we think. Frank mentioned earlier about still making balls on skids. I've experienced this as well. On the predominant slow, rolling skids, the cb does drastically alter.

Someone posted about efren explaining his thoughts on skids. I'm not trying to jump on an efren bandwagon or anything, but I really do agree with him... if skidding is anything of a concern, draw the ball. Another way to say that would be a good default position to go to for a conscientious pool player may be a draw stroke... and we do in fact see this in practice which is interesting. Count how many top players shoot the next 100 (semi difficult or above) nine balls in with draw vs follow and I bet it will be 10 to 1 at least.
 
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