Long game - which side to move balls to up table

cincy_kid

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I was watching a match last night on youtube:

2011 US Open One Pocket Finals - Efren vs Gentile

Commentated by Dr Bill, Scott Frost and Cory Deuel.

A topic came up and was discussed a bit between the 3 of them and I am curious what some others on the forums think and their reasoning behind it.

Basically, when all the balls go up table and you are playing the long game, is it better to have the balls "wedged" or "cluttered" up on your side of the table or your opponents side of the table and why?

I can see pros and cons to both and they made a few points about it in the video but wanted to see what you guys do when you play and why.

Thanks!
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Basically, when all the balls go up table and you are playing the long game, is it better to have the balls "wedged" or "cluttered" up on your side of the table or your opponents side of the table and why?

Thanks!
We had a Swiss guy (back in '78) who actually worked in Bern, Switzerland at the cheese factory there and when the balls got cluttered up in the uptable corners he would say they were "cheese wedged". When I figured out the right shot I would tell him "yeah, Swiss cheese wedged, I see a hole in your wedge":).

I would rather have them in his uptable corner. If I roll one in the pocket he doesn't have a shot at a ball on the spot.

It doesn't much matter. These situations happen as a result of ball positions and available shots, not as a result of "planning ahead" by some genius player. Nobody intentionally tries to set up a particular "cheese wedge" or as we shortened it to; "wedge":p.

Dennis
 

cincy_kid

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We had a Swiss guy (back in '78) who actually worked in Bern, Switzerland at the cheese factory there and when the balls got cluttered up in the uptable corners he would say they were "cheese wedged". When I figured out the right shot I would tell him "yeah, Swiss cheese wedged, I see a hole in your wedge":).

I would rather have them in his uptable corner. If I roll one in the pocket he doesn't have a shot at a ball on the spot.

It doesn't much matter. These situations happen as a result of ball positions and available shots, not as a result of "planning ahead" by some genius player. Nobody intentionally tries to set up a particular "cheese wedge" or as we shortened it to; "wedge":p.

Dennis
that's a great point there Dennis...(and nice swiss cheese analogy lol)

It also clears up channels on your side to do one rail long banks which I think is what Dr. Bill mentioned last night

Scott on the other hand said he liked putting them on his own side because he would occasionally have the chance to 3 rail a ball and duck behind something
 

Disco Dave

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It doesn't much matter. These situations happen as a result of ball positions and available shots, not as a result of "planning ahead" by some genius player. Nobody intentionally tries to set up a particular "cheese wedge" or as we shortened it to; "wedge":p.

Dennis
I've seen Jeremy Jones intentionally play the wedge against Efren at this year's DCC and against Josh Roberts at Big Tyme in March. Nothing accidental about it (15 balls in the uptable corner).
 

cincy_kid

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I've seen Jeremy Jones intentionally play the wedge against Efren at this year's DCC and against Josh Roberts at Big Tyme in March. Nothing accidental about it (15 balls in the uptable corner).
Which side Dave? His own side or opponents?
 

Cowboy Dennis

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It doesn't much matter. These situations happen as a result of ball positions and available shots, not as a result of "planning ahead" by some genius player. Nobody intentionally tries to set up a particular "cheese wedge" or as we shortened it to; "wedge":p.

Dennis
I've seen Jeremy Jones intentionally play the wedge against Efren at this year's DCC and against Josh Roberts at Big Tyme in March. Nothing accidental about it (15 balls in the uptable corner).
DD,

So all 15 balls were at the foot-end of the table (before the break) and for some strange reason JJ thought it was a good strategy to shoot them all near an uptable corner(and away from his own pocket) and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it?

Or was it more likely that " these situations happen as a result of ball positions and available shots, not as a result of 'planning ahead' by some genius player", as I said?

Do tell, was it Efren that allowed this to happen? When it's available on DVD I'll just have to see it and post it here you know:).

P.S. Not doubting what happened Dave but the "intentionality" of it.

P.Ps. I posted a WWYD here several years ago and the fact that so many balls were uptable and (I think) on one side led many to think I had erred in labeling the pockets. Of course I had not erred:). It can happen (the cheese wedge) but not intentionally, as I said.

There comes a certain point in a game like that where both players may resign themselves to the realization that this game will become a wedge game but it's not intentionally set-up by one player without the other player's implicit cooperation.

Dennis
 

cincy_kid

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DD,

So all 15 balls were at the foot-end of the table (before the break) and for some strange reason JJ thought it was a good strategy to shoot them all near an uptable corner(and away from his own pocket) and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it?

Or was it more likely that " these situations happen as a result of ball positions and available shots, not as a result of 'planning ahead' by some genius player", as I said?

Do tell, was it Efren that allowed this to happen? When it's available on DVD I'll just have to see it and post it here you know:).

P.S. Not doubting what happened Dave but the "intentionality" of it.

P.Ps. I posted a WWYD here several years ago and the fact that so many balls were uptable and (I think) on one side led many to think I had erred in labeling the pockets. Of course I had not erred:). It can happen (the cheese wedge) but not intentionally, as I said.

There comes a certain point in a game like that where both players may resign themselves to the realization that this game will become a wedge game but it's not intentionally set-up by one player without the other player's implicit cooperation.

Dennis
I dont think anyone is implying it's intentional from the beginning..

But if you find that the game starts to take itself up table, does it benefit you more to have the balls gathered on your side or your opponents?
 

Cowboy Dennis

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There comes a certain point in a game like that where both players may resign themselves to the realization that this game will become a wedge game but it's not intentionally set-up by one player without the other player's implicit cooperation.

Dennis
I dont think anyone is implying it's intentional from the beginning.
Not from the beginning or almost any other point either. There is a certain point that is reached where both players know it's going to be a long game though.

As I said, these situations arise and we deal with them, we do not pre-plan & envision & construct them.

Dennis
 

Disco Dave

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I dont think anyone is implying it's intentional from the beginning..

But if you find that the game starts to take itself up table, does it benefit you more to have the balls gathered on your side or your opponents?
I've seen JJ do this a number of times, yes, from the beginning by choice...not just against those two examples. If he wants to do it, he can. And yes, Efren had no choice the way JJ did it. I've also heard of him doing something similar to Hillbilly.

Every shot, he left his opponent frozen to another ball, multiple balls and rail or shooting from the foot rail uptable at the wedge. When his opponent would break a ball out of the wedge he'd bank it at his hole and almost always make it or leave it jawed in his pocket.

I've also heard that Nick Varner liked to play the wedge.

Agreed some games the balls lay better for other strategies. However, when up against top players who are very creative, it's a good weapon to limit their options.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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DD,

So all 15 balls were at the foot-end of the table (before the break) and for some strange reason JJ thought it was a good strategy to shoot them all near an uptable corner(and away from his own pocket) and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it?

There comes a certain point in a game like that where both players may resign themselves to the realization that this game will become a wedge game but it's not intentionally set-up by one player without the other player's implicit cooperation.

Dennis
Who is "we"? I don't think you speak for JJ.
DD,

Nice obfuscation.

Do you speak for JJ ?

P.S. "We" is most intelligent One-Pocket players.

Dennis
 

Disco Dave

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Not from the beginning or almost any other point either. There is a certain point that is reached where both players know it's going to be a long game though.

As I said, these situations arise and we deal with them, we do not pre-plan & envision & construct them.

Dennis
DD,

Nice obfuscation.

Do you speak for JJ ?

P.S. "We" is most intelligent One-Pocket players.

Dennis

No obfuscation. I don't speak for JJ. Neither do you. He is probably more intelligent than you in matters of pool.

I am simply reporting on what I have actually witnessed and you start your usual shit slinging as you do in every other thread that you post in.

Get a life! My last word.
 

NH Steve

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I would prefer them clustered in the opposite diagonal corner from my own pocket. The reason being simple, it is so easy to either on purpose or accidentally knock a ball into that pocket leaving the cue ball knotted up on or in the wedge, I want the resulting spotted ball to be lined up for my hole, not my opponent's.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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No obfuscation. I don't speak for JJ. Neither do you. He is probably more intelligent than you in matters of pool.

I am simply reporting on what I have actually witnessed and you start your usual shit slinging as you do in every other thread that you post in.

Get a life! My last word.
In case you haven't read here on this site from all your many months on it, I have listed several times Jeremy Jones in my top 3 most intelligent One-Pocket players I've ever seen along with Nick Varner and Steve Cook.

No player ever has unilaterally played a "wedge" game.

Go be a jerk-off to someone else.

Dennis
 

tucson9ball

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I've seen JJ do this a number of times, yes, from the beginning by choice...not just against those two examples. If he wants to do it, he can. And yes, Efren had no choice the way JJ did it. I've also heard of him doing something similar to Hillbilly.

Every shot, he left his opponent frozen to another ball, multiple balls and rail or shooting from the foot rail uptable at the wedge. When his opponent would break a ball out of the wedge he'd bank it at his hole and almost always make it or leave it jawed in his pocket.

I've also heard that Nick Varner liked to play the wedge.

Agreed some games the balls lay better for other strategies. However, when up against top players who are very creative, it's a good weapon to limit their options.

I've heard it called the "Varner Wedge" on more than one occasion. I doubt he plans on doing it every game, but he definitely prefers the balls up table on his own side if the game plays out like that.
 

NH Steve

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I've posted this before, but for about a year I had a sparring partner that definitely preferred the dragged out uptable game. I did not, but it took me quite a while to see how those games were developing, and what, if anything, I could do to stave them off. I did tweak certain shot choices early in the game so that I could cut back on giving him the ideal opportunities to get those games started.

As most of you know, once the balls start heading uptable, those games do have a kind of momentum of their own because it so quickly becomes unsafe to fight it -- in order to avoid undue risk you have to join in sending balls up table too.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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As most of you know, once the balls start heading uptable, those games do have a kind of momentum of their own because it so quickly becomes unsafe to fight it -- in order to avoid undue risk you have to join in sending balls up table too.
This is exactly correct. The balls start going uptable because of no other options and soon they are clustered in one or both corners.

Dennis
 

beatle

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all true some games it just happens. i like them on my side as i hit 3 railers well.
and just keeping the cue ball on his side keeps him from having any shot.

if in a wedge then you want them on his side.

but if my opponent likes to knock up table all the time i dont play him or have a rule any time there is four balls up table one gets spotted.

its no fun and not worth my time unless he is a big go off for alot of money to tick around all day for one or two games.
 
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