How to make this...

Cary

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Once upon time I was struggling mightily to understand trigonometry and, predictably, was having absolutely no luck. Eventually it was suggested that in order to pass the course I quit trying to understand "why", just learn the formula's and use them. It worked and I ended up with an "A" for the course.

You'd be amazed at the number of subjects to which that advice can successfully be applied.
 
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backplaying

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One what? Physicist? Me either (far as I know). But I'll bet there are some who can. If you think knowledge and good play are incompatible, then I agree you've got more important things to learn than physics.

pj
chgo
I changed my reply to, I had rather have talent at playing, than have talent at explaining it. I have noticed your disrespect for great players, by constantly disagreeing with them. If you were in a pool room arguing with a top player, you would get laughed out of the room. I guess it's just your way of doing what you do best, which is explaining why things happen, because you lack the ability to actually play well. Just like your non-stop doubting of everything CJ said. It can also be looked at as knocking, regardless of who was right! Also, many good players make great teachers without having to explain exactly why everything happens in every detail, myself for one.
 
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Patrick Johnson

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I had rather have talent at playing, than have talent at explaining it.
Just because you can't do both doesn't mean nobody can.

Just like your non-stop doubting of everything CJ said.
Your inability to tell the difference between carnival barking and real info is unfortunate but not particularly surprising, since you're apparently a regular on the "Magical Thinking" forum at AzB (otherwise known as the "Stan Shuffet and CJ Wiley Fan Club").

pj
chgo

P.S. Yes, both those guys play great. Neither of them knows how they do it.
 

straightback

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PJ's arguments are (presumably) subject to attack on various grounds. However, the fact that be does not agree with CJ Wiley is not one of them. If you can't see past his pathetic attempts to hawk his hilarious CD's and techniques, then I regrettably know all that I need to know about you as a player and, more importantly, as a thinker.

There is a reason why only beginners flock to his circus tent - they don't know any better.
 

backplaying

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PJ's arguments are (presumably) subject to attack on various grounds. However, the fact that be does not agree with CJ Wiley is not one of them. If you can't see past his pathetic attempts to hawk his hilarious CD's and techniques, then I regrettably know all that I need to know about you as a player and, more importantly, as a thinker.

There is a reason why only beginners flock to his circus tent - they don't know any better.
Which is why I threw the word knocking in. I'm a friend of CJ's and have no problem with someone trying to make a living in the pool world. Its tough enough without having knockers come into play. I happen to disagree with CJ's TOI and actually teach a touch of outside, if anything. I couldn't play at all using it, but some might. I also know you don't have to explain why something happens in every detail to teach. I'm also a friend of John B, and wouldn't second guess his post on how he makes a certain shot. The bottom line is,Patrick can't play, so, the only way he can compete is to claim real players don't know why the ball does certain things.
 

backplaying

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Just because you can't do both doesn't mean nobody can.


Your inability to tell the difference between carnival barking and real info is unfortunate but not particularly surprising, since you're apparently a regular on the "Magical Thinking" forum at AzB (otherwise known as the "Stan Shuffet and CJ Wiley Fan Club").

pj
chgo

P.S. Yes, both those guys play great. Neither of them knows how they do it.
Not a believer in any of it, just the opposite, to tell the truth. I guess you could say I'm anti-system everything!;) I met CJ when he was about 18 and am just a friend. There is a fine line in debating and knocking.
 

Patrick Johnson

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I'm a friend of CJ's and have no problem with someone trying to make a living in the pool world.

...

There is a fine line in debating and knocking.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't realize that CJ peddles blatant bullshit to unsuspecting yokels. I'll even give him the same benefit and assume he actually believes the nonsense he sells.

But the fact that he may not realize he's peddling bullshit doesn't change the fact that it's bullshit, and the hundreds of online readers at AzB (and here, for that matter) deserve to know that more than he deserves to make money by selling them misinformation.

That's where I draw my line. I guess you have to decide for yourself where to draw the one between being CJ's friend and defending/enabling his selling of snake oil to your online "friends".

pj
chgo

(But CJ's carnival barker sales pitch sure makes it hard to believe he doesn't know he's hawking bullshit.)
 
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straightback

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Which is why I threw the word knocking in. I'm a friend of CJ's and have no problem with someone trying to make a living in the pool world. Its tough enough without having knockers come into play. I happen to disagree with CJ's TOI and actually teach a touch of outside, if anything. I couldn't play at all using it, but some might. I also know you don't have to explain why something happens in every detail to teach. I'm also a friend of John B, and wouldn't second guess his post on how he makes a certain shot. The bottom line is,Patrick can't play, so, the only way he can compete is to claim real players don't know why the ball does certain things.
Well, first of all, thank you for letting us know you're a pal of CJ's. That in and of itself may tend to explain a lot here. Also, I have no problem with a man making a living. I do have a problem with someone who does or should know better peddling horseshit to innocent beginners.

PJ's competency at pool and his understanding of ball and rail behavior have nothing to do with one another. Be a friend to yourself and just address his argument and not his person.

There is a reason every player and pro who knows a thing about pool snickers when they hear "TOI." In fact, if I mention it and I don't see a smile on the other guy's face, I feel like I've got the best of it. If the guy says he actually employs the TOI method, I will typically start with accusing him of slow rolling me. Those are facts.
 

SJDinPHX

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Well, first of all, thank you for letting us know you're a pal of CJ's. That in and of itself may tend to explain a lot here. Also, I have no problem with a man making a living. I do have a problem with someone who does or should know better peddling horseshit to innocent beginners.

PJ's competency at pool and his understanding of ball and rail behavior have nothing to do with one another. Be a friend to yourself and just address his argument and not his person.

There is a reason every player and pro who knows a thing about pool snickers when they hear "TOI." In fact, if I mention it and I don't see a smile on the other guy's face, I feel like I've got the best of it. If the guy says he actually employs the TOI method, I will typically start with accusing him of slow rolling me. Those are facts.
Straightback, I have no problem with PJ, or BP, and certainly none with you, re; CJ's status as a "teacher"!..I have given him his props, as a smart businessman... However, I am definitely in PJ's camp, in his description of him as a "carnival barker".

I don't consider it 'knocking' to advance that opinion...However what has been said, (in no uncertain terms) on this site, got myself and PJ extensive "vacations" from AZB, for what they called "abusive" posts !...I can understand them protecting him, as he is one of there regular (albeit shady) advertiser's. :cool:

I cannot understand his being allowed to take advantage of beginner's, by promoting his 'TOI' as a valid method of playing 'better' pool...Quite the opposite..'TOI' is probably the WORST method for improving anyone's play, and most decent pool player's deservedly scoff at it !.. I consider it a service, to expose that opinion, to unwitting beginner's..(or anyone else, for that matter)

SJD <--Is, (it appears)..destined to always be skating on thin ice, for exposing, and challenging 'anyone' who advances erroneous, or false information...personal, or otherwise ! :rolleyes:
 

petie

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Straightback, I have no problem with PJ, or BP, and certainly none with you, re; CJ's status as a "teacher"!..I have given him his props, as a smart businessman... However, I am definitely in PJ's camp, in his description of him as a "carnival barker".

I don't consider it 'knocking' to advance that opinion...However what has been said, (in no uncertain terms) on this site, got myself and PJ extensive "vacations" from AZB, for what they called "abusive" posts !...I can understand them protecting him, as he is one of there regular (albeit shady) advertiser's. :cool:

I cannot understand his being allowed to take advantage of beginner's, by promoting his 'TOI' as a valid method of playing 'better' pool...Quite the opposite..'TOI' is probably the WORST method for improving anyone's play, and most decent pool player's deservedly scoff at it !.. I consider it a service, to expose that opinion, to unwitting beginner's..(or anyone else, for that matter)

SJD <--Is, (it appears)..destined to always be skating on thin ice, for exposing, and challenging 'anyone' who advances erroneous, or false information...personal, or otherwise ! :rolleyes:
Don't ask me to prove it but I could swear I saw a vid of Shane saying he uses that method. I myself use it once in a great while when I am perpendicular to the rail and dead even with an OB that I want to cut down the rail. I don't know, I think it gives me a touch of squirt on the CB that makes me cut the OB a little thinner. Pool is all in your head.
 
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mr3cushion

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Don't ask me to prove it but I could swear I saw a vid of Shane saying he uses that method. I myself use it once in a great while when I am perpendicular to the rail and dead even with an OB that I want to cut down the rail. I don't know, I think it gives me a touch of squirt on the CB that make me cut the OB a little thinner. Pool is all in your head.
In (red) Now, IMHO, this is 100% CORRECT! :)
 

SJDinPHX

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Don't ask me to prove it but I could swear I saw a vid of Shane saying he uses that method. I myself use it once in a great while when I am perpendicular to the rail and dead even with an OB that I want to cut down the rail. I don't know, I think it gives me a touch of squirt on the CB that make me cut the OB a little thinner. Pool is all in your head.
Petie; I certainly have never seen, or heard of Shane touting 'TOI' ..I'm sure he uses his favorite 'shortcut', or whatever spin the shot calls for, as does Efren, or any other top player !..I don't think they need to mentally 'trick' themselves, while they are over a shot ! :rolleyes:

More power to you, if you think TOI 'helps' your game..(I'd like to think I could convince you otherwise, in about 10 minutes ;))..Also, pool is NOT all in your head..While it is VERY much a mental game, your mechanics will always

be in first place, when you pull the trigger ! ;)

Late Edit;...Trust me, the above is 100% more correct, than any non pool-player's 'humble opinion' !..JMHO !
...Why do I feel like I am being 'stalked' ?.. I was just chatting with my 'friends', minding my own business ! :eek:
 
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Patrick Johnson

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Don't ask me to prove it but I could swear I saw a vid of Shane saying he uses that (TOI) method. I myself use it once in a great while when I am perpendicular to the rail and dead even with an OB that I want to cut down the rail. I don't know, I think it gives me a touch of squirt on the CB that makes me cut the OB a little thinner. Pool is all in your head.
Using inside when needed isn't what CJ sells - he says you should aim to the side of the pocket and use inside to correct to center pocket on most shots, because it "enlarges the margin of error". In fact, as we all know, hitting the CB off center makes aiming less accurate, not more - but the less knowledgeable players who try it will pay closer attention to where they hit the CB and to what part of the pocket they're aiming, so they'll see some improvement and believe CJ's nonsense claim that TOI is the reason. This means they not only learn untrue things, but things that contradict reality. It makes them dumber.

About thin cuts with the OB frozen to the rail: it's a well known fact that using inside for these specific shots actually does increase your margin of error because you can hit a little bit rail first and still make the shot (because the spin throws the CB into the OB) - you can even make cuts that are greater than 90 degrees this way. But, again, this true fact is nothing like what CJ peddles.

As far as using side spin to create some squirt so you'll hit the shot a little thinner - that's more like what CJ teaches (except he doesn't limit it to just this kind of shot), and I disagree with it. Better to just learn to aim a little thinner without side spin and squirt. Don't use a "cure" that's worse than the "disease".

pj
chgo
 

SJDinPHX

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Using inside when needed isn't what CJ sells - he says you should aim to the side of the pocket and use inside to correct to center pocket on most shots, because it "enlarges the margin of error". In fact, as we all know, hitting the CB off center makes aiming less accurate, not more - but the less knowledgeable players who try it will pay closer attention to where they hit the CB and to what part of the pocket they're aiming, so they'll see some improvement and believe CJ's nonsense claim that TOI is the reason. This means they not only learn untrue things, but things that contradict reality. It makes them dumber.

About thin cuts with the OB frozen to the rail: it's a well known fact that using inside for these specific shots actually does increase your margin of error because you can hit a little bit rail first and still make the shot (because the spin throws the CB into the OB) - you can even make cuts that are greater than 90 degrees this way. But, again, this true fact is nothing like what CJ peddles.

As far as using side spin to create some squirt so you'll hit the shot a little thinner - that's more like what CJ teaches (except he doesn't limit it to just this kind of shot), and I disagree with it.... Better to just learn to aim a little thinner without side spin and squirt. Don't use a "cure" that's worse than the "disease".
pj
chgo
PJ..You make a lot more sense, than a lot of guys who 'think' they play better than you !...Or, to quote the 'author' of
post #51,.... "In (red) now, IMHO, is 100% correct !"....(or something terribly dis-jointed like that :eek:)
 
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Patrick Johnson

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PJ..You make a lot more sense, than a lot of guys who 'think' they play better than you !
Thanks, Dick - but to be perfectly honest, a lot of guys who think they play better than I do are correct!

pj <- but not all of 'em
chgo
 

mr3cushion

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Sounds like MY thread on making a difficult bank shot, has turned into an, 'AZ exiled admiration society' thread! But, go figure, what else is new! :rolleyes:
 

Patrick Johnson

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Try a touch of inside, like chicken soup "it can't hurt" :D
Rod.
I use "a touch of inside" on every shot that needs it for shape. I just don't make a religion of it and claim it's some kind of all-purpose "system".

pj <- maybe if I could sell it I'd see things differently
chgo
 

petie

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Using inside when needed isn't what CJ sells - he says you should aim to the side of the pocket and use inside to correct to center pocket on most shots, because it "enlarges the margin of error". In fact, as we all know, hitting the CB off center makes aiming less accurate, not more - but the less knowledgeable players who try it will pay closer attention to where they hit the CB and to what part of the pocket they're aiming, so they'll see some improvement and believe CJ's nonsense claim that TOI is the reason. This means they not only learn untrue things, but things that contradict reality. It makes them dumber.

About thin cuts with the OB frozen to the rail: it's a well known fact that using inside for these specific shots actually does increase your margin of error because you can hit a little bit rail first and still make the shot (because the spin throws the CB into the OB) - you can even make cuts that are greater than 90 degrees this way. But, again, this true fact is nothing like what CJ peddles.

As far as using side spin to create some squirt so you'll hit the shot a little thinner - that's more like what CJ teaches (except he doesn't limit it to just this kind of shot), and I disagree with it. Better to just learn to aim a little thinner without side spin and squirt. Don't use a "cure" that's worse than the "disease".

pj
chgo
On my cut down the rail, I'm not talking about rail first. That is a separate situation and shot.
 
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