Handicapping Question

Skin

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This has been on my mind for a while since I have been playing more and improving a bit.

When setting a fair handicap, do you take into consideration how many innings it would take for a player to win? For example, suppose player A can run 5 balls in an ordinary situation where player B could only run 3. Is the right handicap 10-6 since that would require of both players 2 innings to win the game? I think I read on here once (maybe Artie wrote it, I don't recall) that you should not take a handicap that would take more than 2 innings for you to complete nor give the other guy a handicap that would take him less than 2 innings to complete.

Hope the question makes sense. :)

Skin
 

beatle

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the best way to handicap is to learn to judge how much better someone plays than you and know how to translate that into balls of spot. you take in to effect how he plays others and how they play you. then how your two styles will affect the outcome.

then add a ball or two so you have the best of it or why waste your time. then add a little so if you are off your game or he is on you still win. then add a little in case he gets lucky. then add a little so you can get him stuck right away so he goes off.
then add some more so you can stall and not show your speed so this game doesnt ruin all the others you play.
 

senor

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beatle said:
the best way to handicap is to learn to judge how much better someone plays than you and know how to translate that into balls of spot. you take in to effect how he plays others and how they play you. then how your two styles will affect the outcome.

then add a ball or two so you have the best of it or why waste your time. then add a little so if you are off your game or he is on you still win. then add a little in case he gets lucky. then add a little so you can get him stuck right away so he goes off.
then add some more so you can stall and not show your speed so this game doesnt ruin all the others you play.

This should be added to the handicapping section as a prelude. Very nice.
 

SJDinPHX

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beatle said:
the best way to handicap is to learn to judge how much better someone plays than you and know how to translate that into balls of spot. you take in to effect how he plays others and how they play you. then how your two styles will affect the outcome.

then add a ball or two so you have the best of it or why waste your time. then add a little so if you are off your game or he is on you still win. then add a little in case he gets lucky. then add a little so you can get him stuck right away so he goes off.
then add some more so you can stall and not show your speed so this game doesnt ruin all the others you play.

Beatle,

Sounds like you subscribe to the Chicago/New york, school of matching up..?

Don't forget, no matter how good you think your game is...you only fire two barrells...if you win one apiece...you QUIT..:rolleyes:

God forbid, you lose both games...that is cause for slitting your wrist's..:D
 

Cowboy Dennis

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SJDinPHX said:
Beatle,

Sounds like you subscribe to the Chicago/New york, school of matching up..?

Don't forget, no matter how good you think your game is...you only fire two barrells...if you win one apiece...you QUIT..:rolleyes:

God forbid, you lose both games...that is cause for slitting your wrist's..:D


You may as well include Detroit in there too Duck. That seems to be a lifelong tactic of many here. Even the supposed players and gamblers. Not too many will back up their act with action.
 

gulfportdoc

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In case some of you lads haven't noticed, gambling on pool has gone the way of the typewriter: some are still seen used, but not very often.;)

My rough estimate is that pool action, in contrast to the 1960's & 70's, is down by half. Most of the "thrill gambling" has transferred to the casinos. And the state lotteries have sucked up that action in areas where there are no casinos.

Higher dollar action still crops up here and there, now and again. Most of the wagering appears to me as it always did --which is medium to low dollar bets-- however just not as common.

Another contributor to the loss of action is that fewer players today seem to be on drugs and booze. It was hard to walk into an action poolroom in years past where a lot of the guys weren't flyin' on something! As a result, today's sober players are naturally going to be more cautious about what kind of game they're getting themselves into, and how long they stay in it.

And too, the feminization of this country has caused a lack of gumption in men. I do see signs of common masculinity returning in males (and I'm not referring to this prevalant idiotic gansta mentality). But so far, "touchy/feely" still seems as common as "rough 'n ready".:rolleyes:

Doc
 

thepavlos

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Hey now,
Just because I get "touchy feely" with my money is no reason to attack my masculinity!! My money and I are in a committed relationship and I would really miss her if she left me for someone else........:eek:
 

twister

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(Beware: long post ahead...)

For me, you choose to gamble on pool for one of the following three reasons:

1. To make money, you have a sucker or a good game and you want to bleed the guy dry.

2. To have fun, for the thrill of it. You like action in general, and pool just happens to be one of the possible outlets.

3. To improve your game. You're looking for better competition or just to see how good you really are.

Ideally, any action we get would include all 3 of the above. That being said, #1 seems almost impossible these days. With the internet and instant communications, hustling seems damn near impossible, and players are much more cautious than they used to be. I'd even go as far as to throw the idea out there that pool leagues have hurt action. Leagues give your average player a safe competitive arena, which makes unknown players or even people who are known, but want to play for money even more suspicious.

Reason #2 seems to have been hammered by casinos and the rise of (online) poker. Anybody with a pulse and a few bucks can get lucky at a slot machine or even on the river in hold'em, and so the thrill of gambling is much more heightened in these games as luck plays such a bigger role than in pool. Please don't come back and say that poker is about skill and all that. Let's leave that to another thread. I realize that there are many people who are very 'good' at poker, but if I catch a run of good cards, they can't touch me. Think about who's won the last several WSOP main events and then think about who's won any of the DCC events since its inception. Poker truly is the everyman game, and the short duration of each hand makes for great drama and great TV. Pool will never compete in that arena, but that's okay. What's perhaps more troublesome with reason #2 is that it's taken a lot of the backer and loose money away from the pool halls, so that action of course suffers in return. Not sure there's much to be done about this. If players could make a decent living playing tournaments, maybe more would be able to bet their own money, but that isn't the case now.

So, on to reason #3, our best hope for survival. Players who want to get better need to spend money, period, end of story. Whether it's on a decent first cue stick, table time, a table for your house, lessons from a house pro, tournament entry fees, or action games, no pain, no gain. The question is what investment of the player's money gives the best return via skill improvement. So, let's assume the player has the basics: their own stick (yes, I know Bugs never needed one), the basic skills like stance, bridge, stroke, etc. Now what? Well, I'd say that the player has 4 options if they don't want to remain an average B or C player forever: drills/solitary practice, lessons, tournaments, and action. Lessons are generally rather expensive and are helpful fixing specific issues, but lessons does not a player make. Tournaments are generally too infrequent in most parts of the country, and nonexistent in areas like Boston, and if you have to travel, expenses pile up real quick. Solitary practice is great, and all of us do either a little or a lot of it at some point. It's a necessary evil, but at some point we need to test our skills in a real situation.

So, that leaves action. Find the cheapest game you can with the best, most experienced player you can find and play. In this scenario, assuming you're going to be donating to the better player for a while, you can view these games as kinds of lessons, except these are lessons in real situations in a serious game. If the opponent is just goofing around or is on the lemon as he knows he can clobber you, well, you need to find another game. But if you can find a better player who will play you 'for real' for cheap, then your nerves, skill and mental attitude will increase very quickly, assuming you're actually any good at pool in the first place... :D It's just frustrating to see all the players who spend so much time and money on pool, but never really improve and don't make much contribution to the game in return. If these players viewed action in the way I think it should be viewed, as a real-life lesson, a way to improve all aspects of their game, as the ultimate test of their abilities, then I think pool halls would be much more interesting and enjoyable places than they currently are.

So, a bit of a rant, but I think there's some sense in this. Maybe some of the more veteran players could chime in here and comment on how they got started playing and how they overcame being just good and became great.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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twister said:
(Beware: long post ahead...)

For me, you choose to gamble on pool for one of the following three reasons:

1. To make money, you have a sucker or a good game and you want to bleed the guy dry.

2. To have fun, for the thrill of it. You like action in general, and pool just happens to be one of the possible outlets.

3. To improve your game. You're looking for better competition or just to see how good you really are.

Ideally, any action we get would include all 3 of the above. That being said, #1 seems almost impossible these days. With the internet and instant communications, hustling seems damn near impossible, and players are much more cautious than they used to be. I'd even go as far as to throw the idea out there that pool leagues have hurt action. Leagues give your average player a safe competitive arena, which makes unknown players or even people who are known, but want to play for money even more suspicious.

Reason #2 seems to have been hammered by casinos and the rise of (online) poker. Anybody with a pulse and a few bucks can get lucky at a slot machine or even on the river in hold'em, and so the thrill of gambling is much more heightened in these games as luck plays such a bigger role than in pool. Please don't come back and say that poker is about skill and all that. Let's leave that to another thread. I realize that there are many people who are very 'good' at poker, but if I catch a run of good cards, they can't touch me. Think about who's won the last several WSOP main events and then think about who's won any of the DCC events since its inception. Poker truly is the everyman game, and the short duration of each hand makes for great drama and great TV. Pool will never compete in that arena, but that's okay. What's perhaps more troublesome with reason #2 is that it's taken a lot of the backer and loose money away from the pool halls, so that action of course suffers in return. Not sure there's much to be done about this. If players could make a decent living playing tournaments, maybe more would be able to bet their own money, but that isn't the case now.

So, on to reason #3, our best hope for survival. Players who want to get better need to spend money, period, end of story. Whether it's on a decent first cue stick, table time, a table for your house, lessons from a house pro, tournament entry fees, or action games, no pain, no gain. The question is what investment of the player's money gives the best return via skill improvement. So, let's assume the player has the basics: their own stick (yes, I know Bugs never needed one), the basic skills like stance, bridge, stroke, etc. Now what? Well, I'd say that the player has 4 options if they don't want to remain an average B or C player forever: drills/solitary practice, lessons, tournaments, and action. Lessons are generally rather expensive and are helpful fixing specific issues, but lessons does not a player make. Tournaments are generally too infrequent in most parts of the country, and nonexistent in areas like Boston, and if you have to travel, expenses pile up real quick. Solitary practice is great, and all of us do either a little or a lot of it at some point. It's a necessary evil, but at some point we need to test our skills in a real situation.

So, that leaves action. Find the cheapest game you can with the best, most experienced player you can find and play. In this scenario, assuming you're going to be donating to the better player for a while, you can view these games as kinds of lessons, except these are lessons in real situations in a serious game. If the opponent is just goofing around or is on the lemon as he knows he can clobber you, well, you need to find another game. But if you can find a better player who will play you 'for real' for cheap, then your nerves, skill and mental attitude will increase very quickly, assuming you're actually any good at pool in the first place... :D It's just frustrating to see all the players who spend so much time and money on pool, but never really improve and don't make much contribution to the game in return. If these players viewed action in the way I think it should be viewed, as a real-life lesson, a way to improve all aspects of their game, as the ultimate test of their abilities, then I think pool halls would be much more interesting and enjoyable places than they currently are.

So, a bit of a rant, but I think there's some sense in this. Maybe some of the more veteran players could chime in here and comment on how they got started playing and how they overcame being just good and became great.



Very good/astute post.



- Ghost
 

lll

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vero beach fl
Skin said:
This has been on my mind for a while since I have been playing more and improving a bit.

When setting a fair handicap, do you take into consideration how many innings it would take for a player to win? For example, suppose player A can run 5 balls in an ordinary situation where player B could only run 3. Is the right handicap 10-6 since that would require of both players 2 innings to win the game? I think I read on here once (maybe Artie wrote it, I don't recall) that you should not take a handicap that would take more than 2 innings for you to complete nor give the other guy a handicap that would take him less than 2 innings to complete.

Hope the question makes sense. :)

Skin
skin when 2 top players play 9-8 or 9-7 for example i would assume either one could go 9 and out. i think it also has to do with the moving to shooting difference between the 2 players. like beatle said "the best way to handicap is to learn to judge how much better someone plays than you and know how to translate that into balls of spot. you take in to effect how he plays others and how they play you. then how your two styles will affect the outcome"
on the other hand when the skill difference is greater i think it gets alittle trickier. if the skill level is great enough or difference in knowledge of the game i.e. playing 9 ballers is great enough even 10-4 can not be enough for the lesser skilled player. the better player will lay better traps and be more productive while the less skilled player wont lay a good enough trap to get offensive.imho
 
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One Pocket Ghost

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gulfportdoc said:
In case some of you lads haven't noticed, gambling on pool has gone the way of the typewriter: some are still seen used, but not very often.;)

My rough estimate is that pool action, in contrast to the 1960's & 70's, is down by half. Most of the "thrill gambling" has transferred to the casinos. And the state lotteries have sucked up that action in areas where there are no casinos.

Higher dollar action still crops up here and there, now and again. Most of the wagering appears to me as it always did --which is medium to low dollar bets-- however just not as common.

Another contributor to the loss of action is that fewer players today seem to be on drugs and booze. It was hard to walk into an action poolroom in years past where a lot of the guys weren't flyin' on something! As a result, today's sober players are naturally going to be more cautious about what kind of game they're getting themselves into, and how long they stay in it.

And too, the feminization of this country has caused a lack of gumption in men. I do see signs of common masculinity returning in males (and I'm not referring to this prevalant idiotic gansta mentality). But so far, "touchy/feely" still seems as common as "rough 'n ready".:rolleyes:

Doc



And Doc, don't forget internet poker...that, along with the casinos, has taken away our action.


- Ghost
 

beatle

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you cultivate the people you are going to beat. they are gamblers not necessarily those that hang in the pool room everyday. after a certain time they become ready to knock some around with you somewhere. then its up to you to get the game bigger and bigger and win. this is how you make your 5 and 6 figure scores.

in the pool room you do the same thing but on a smaller scale. you find the ones that play bigger, have money, and will go off. then you cultivate them so that it is only you who they want to gamble with. you act like them and make different bets and appear to gamble. make side bets on anything with them, when they are playing, sports, flipping a coin, on spot shots anything that creates action. but when the big payoff comes you are there. sooner or later you will get your chance and dont blow it. then go on to the next one. if you handle yourself correctly you have them for life.

one of the reasons for quitting after you lose a game or two early on is that now you have established a baseline for the future games. you can get more or give less spot than that from then on. milk that scenario for a long time.

never play the knockers or the smart guys unless they have come into money and you have a lock. you play the live ones and they play you.
 

androd

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New Braunfels tx.
Skin said:
This has been on my mind for a while since I have been playing more and improving a bit.

When setting a fair handicap, do you take into consideration how many innings it would take for a player to win? For example, suppose player A can run 5 balls in an ordinary situation where player B could only run 3. Is the right handicap 10-6 since that would require of both players 2 innings to win the game? I think I read on here once (maybe Artie wrote it, I don't recall) that you should not take a handicap that would take more than 2 innings for you to complete nor give the other guy a handicap that would take him less than 2 innings to complete.

Hope the question makes sense. :)

Skin

Skin, This is a very hard question. As the balls made count goes up, the better player handles making more balls much better than the weaker player. It's much easier for the guy making 9 balls to move to 10 balls. The weaker player going from 6 balls to 7 balls is much tougher.
An example; I play two guys around the hall. 1st guy(A)10-7 ,2nd guy(B)10-6 both tough games. When they play each other A spots B 9-7 another tough game. I think you have to find a game you'll both play, then tweak it till it gets tough for both sides. Assuming both guys are trying to gamble.
I don't think the above analogy about how many innings is correct. Playing better players you wont get many shots and probably won't run as many balls as you normally would. "Speed kills" If you're the better player you'll be able to select only shots with very little risk and take as many innings as necessary to win.
Rod. <-----hope this isn't off target.
 
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Skin

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androd said:
Skin, This is a very hard question. As the balls made count goes up, the better player handles making more balls much better than the weaker player. It's much easier for the guy making 9 balls to move to 10 balls. The weaker player going from 6 balls to 7 balls is much tougher.
An example; I play two guys around the hall. 1st guy(A)10-7 ,2nd guy(B)10-6 both tough games. When they play each other A spots B 9-7 another tough game. I think you have to find a game you'll both play, then tweak it till it gets tough for both sides. Assuming both guys are trying to gamble.
I don't think the above analogy about how many innings is correct. Playing better players you wont get many shots and probably won't run as many balls as you normally would. "Speed kills" If you're the better player you'll be able to select only shots with very little risk and take as many innings as necessary to win.
Rod. <-----hope this isn't off target.

No, that's a great answer to probably a bad question, Rod. I've just been thinking about it is all. I'm still in the ranks of the C players who all I play even up. But now I am starting to beat them regularly in a race to 3 (my standard set) and have thought a bit about what I might be able to give up to them to keep the games fair enough that they'll still want to play.

Of course, the B players ain't willing to give up anything to me, so maybe I shouldn't worry about it. :D

It sure is a great feeling once you start to catch on to how to play the game, isn't it?

Skin
 

Skin

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lll said:
skin when 2 top players play 9-8 or 9-7 for example i would assume either one could go 9 and out. i think it also has to do with the moving to shooting difference between the 2 players. like beatle said "the best way to handicap is to learn to judge how much better someone plays than you and know how to translate that into balls of spot. you take in to effect how he plays others and how they play you. then how your two styles will affect the outcome"
on the other hand when the skill difference is greater i think it gets alittle trickier. if the skill level is great enough or difference in knowledge of the game i.e. playing 9 ballers is great enough even 10-4 can not be enough for the lesser skilled player. the better player will lay better traps and be more productive while the less skilled player wont lay a good enough trap to get offensive.imho

Good points, Larry my man. Thanks.
 

lll

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vero beach fl
Skin said:
No, that's a great answer to probably a bad question, Rod. I've just been thinking about it is all. I'm still in the ranks of the C players who all I play even up. But now I am starting to beat them regularly in a race to 3 (my standard set) and have thought a bit about what I might be able to give up to them to keep the games fair enough that they'll still want to play.

Of course, the B players ain't willing to give up anything to me, so maybe I shouldn't worry about it. :D

It sure is a great feeling once you start to catch on to how to play the game, isn't it?

Skin
try 9-8 or10-8 and see what happens.
 

SJDinPHX

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Skin said:
Good points, Larry my man. Thanks.

Skin,

I have always felt, that anyone I can beat even, I can give up 9/8. And that goes likewise for anyone who can beat me even.
The big difference is when you start talking 9/7, 8/6, all the breaks, etc.

I know, for example, anyone I have way the best of it with, I was always (well almost always) able to go up in the balls I needed, compared to the balls the avg. B or C player needed to make. For instance, if I could keep the guy going to 8 balls, I could often go well into the teens, before he could get 8.

A big difference, IMO....is when you start matching up those 8/4, 8/5, type games. I'm sure Rod, Senor, and others will agree, thats a whole different ball game.

Your margin for error, or risky shot taking...goes way down. Even if you are playing a novice 1P player, if he can draw his ball, he'll get some if you screw up too much.

I have given up some ungodly spots, but you really need to be careful. Because as long as the guy you are playing, has even minimal smarts and pool skills, he will figure out that you are rarely going to put a 10-12, or 14 and out on him.
Henceforth, while he knows he can't out move you...HIS risk reward goes way up, and if he figures that out...you could be in big trouble if you have money frozen up.

I point these things out, not only from the outlook of the better player, but for the weaker player's to help them match up better.

San <---may have become a "knocker" in his old age..:eek:
 

jrhendy

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androd said:
SJD = The Velvet Hammer:D :rolleyes:

We had a guy around El Monte, Ca and Five Points Bowl (a 24 hour action spot in the 60's/70's) name Chuck Sherman that we called The Velvet Hammer. He could knock from 50 yards away. If you were playing a stranger or someone Chuck didn't want to beat you, he would make the most terrible face he could and shake his head so you knew you had better pull up.

I think Popcorn (Johnny Miller) put that handle on him.

Chuck and I made a fair amount of $$ together, so I usually paid attention.
 

fred bentivegna

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Finally, agreement

Finally, agreement

SJDinPHX said:
Skin,

I have always felt, that anyone I can beat even, I can give up 9/8.
San

Finally, after 2 yrs you said something that made sense, and that I can agree with. To any seeker of knowledge, that is sage advice.


Beard

A curious mind should wonder why that is.
 
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