Foul shooting over a ball?

[Hard Times Carla]

Cueing ball over the 1 ball. Cue ball fouls only. Touch the one ball as you make the object ball. is that a foul?

 

[sorackem]

Cueing ball over the 1 ball. Cue ball fouls only. Touch the one ball as you make the object ball. is that a foul?

Yes, I believe so, Carla.

Cue ball only fouls does not allow for the disturbance of an obstructing or otherwise affecting ball. The 'affecting' ball in this case being the one you are forced to bridge over.
- but check my work

-Edit- : I checked my work. Seems it is not, in itself, a foul, but subject to the final whims of the opponent on if/where it should be restored.

The OnePocket.org posted rules for 1P do not suggest this is a foul.

(I had been under the impression that shooting over a ball or otherwise being restricted by an object ball made that a part of the shot, so to speak - just the same as if you moved a ball from the pathway of the CB - But this seems my own misconception).

The OP.org rules don't mention specifically that interfering ball, but the the World Standardized(?) rules mention:
World Standardized Rules:
1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY
[..]However, when a referee is not presiding over a game, it is not a foul to accidentally touch stationary balls located between the cue ball and the shooter while in the act of shooting.[..].

And then there's this:

12. Close calls and conflict resolution:
non-shooting player bears extra responsibility to call an official if they anticipate a close call or potential ruling dispute.

I've never been one to be quick to change a rule-set but the way the CBO rule allows for a pass on shooting tight over a ball - foul, sits really uncomfortably for me. I'm pretty sure my odds of making my ball are going to go way up if I can 'accidentally' ignore that obstructing ball on the finish. That feels like a foul all the way to my core.

The use of an illegal technique seems prevalent enough for it to be covered in the rules;
6.6.1 Use of an illegal technique:[..], although that specific (shooting over a ball) incident is not addressed.

-Brian

 

[vapros]

I don't think it's a foul.

 

[Renegade_56]

I think not as well, as far as I know you just replace the 1 ball as near as possible immediately.

 

[jtompilot]

I’ve had this called a foul by a couple of players. I don’t call it a foul unless the other player is calling it a foul

 

[12squared]

I think many people call it a foul if you disturb the obstructing ball during your final stroke to strike the cueball. It would not be a foul if you move that obstructing ball before your forward stroke unless you also disturb the cueball.

I asked a tournament director about this ruling playing a 9ball tourney and he said no foul if the balls aren't frozen, but it would be a foul if they are frozen. I like this ruling.

 

[NH Steve]

I think many people call it a foul if you disturb the obstructing ball during your final stroke to strike the cueball. It would not be a foul if you move that obstructing ball before your forward stroke unless you also disturb the cueball.

I asked a tournament director about this ruling playing a 9ball tourney and he said no foul if the balls aren't frozen, but it would be a foul if they are frozen. I like this ruling.

...and I think that is because if they are really close or frozen, then the shooter might well have moved the impeding ball into a slight contact with the cue ball before the cue ball actually left the area, or the impeding ball might have shifted the cue stick direction ever so slightly, either one of which would be hard to see or prove with the naked eye. But if that indeed happened, then that would constitute a disturbed ball having a potential effect on the shot -- which makes it a foul. And when you do in fact disturb a ball in the act of shooting, the call as to whether that disturbed ball passed through the path of either the cue ball or other balls involved in the shot is a bit of a gray area -- meaning it might have changed the shot had it not been disturbed, or it passed through near the disturbance. So the referees, or opponents in this case, get a little the best of it if they want to call a foul because of the gray area involved.

I actually believe that is proper, assuming that no one is arguing that you actually did disturb one object ball. The "cue ball fouls only" rules are written to give the shooter a free pass if they happen to disturb only one ball in a manner that is insignificant to the shot. But if it may have had an effect on the shot, NO FREE PASS. it is a foul lol

 

[lll]

this happens sometimes perhaps more frquently when using a bridge and shooting over a ball
i havent had this called on me as a foul
should it be?

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Carla,
When I was just first starting out, I asked Butch (owner of the Palace in Bellflower, "what is the ruling if you disturb a ball and shoot". He explained how Hustler's play this; "if you disturb a ball and continue to shoot it is a foul, but if you stop and let your opponent know and restore the ball, then it is not a foul". This was his and the house rule of the Palace. Note; this house rule is 1970 way prior to Cue Ball Fouls Only.

Rule writers in their depictions of what is a legal shot make an opening fatal mistake, for they first do not recognize that a legal shot is a shot that does not result in a foul, and that no shot can be predetermined as a foul, but can only be determined as a foul by the results of the shot.

This above statement helps to eliminate the myth's plaguing the pool world. Like, it is an automatic foul if you shoot that shot!

Professional pool players can play a clean game of All Ball Fouls, but at every level of play there are those that will call a contact foul that did not happen, or a ticky tack that so subtle the shooter is totally unaware, so Cue Ball Foul Only is a way to overcome this.

To answer your question; it is not an automatic foul to disturb a ball that you are shooting over. But, if it can be detected that the disturbed ball was contacted and it in turn contacted the cue ball, (there would be an associated "click" sound of the balls contacting each other), then yes it is a foul. Of course if the object ball is frozen to the cue and as a result of the shot the object ball moves forward, then yes that would be an indicator that a foul occurred.

Double Hits; there 3 types of double hits.
1. the cue ball contacts the object ball twice, this produces a double click sound, This happens often on close proximity shot when shooting more directly towards the object ball. The use of either inside or outside english helps to avoid this.
2. the cue ball contacts the object once, but the cue stick recontacts the cue ball, this produces a click and then a thud sound. Hard to judge but knowing the principles of tangent lines helps. This foul occurs on close proximity shots when the angle of the cut is not enough to avoid recontacting the cue ball once again. The use of inside english on these shots helps greatly to avoid the foul!
3. when the cue ball contacts the object ball and then the object ball recontacts the cue. This happens often when shooting a close proximity shot on an angle while using outside english. Again, use inside english to avoid this foul.

Push Stroke: is when the cue ball rides (stays in contact) the cue tip as the stroke goes forward. This can happen before contacting the object ball (a little know phenomena), or after contacting the object ball.
Therefore, when the cue ball is frozen to an object ball it is legal to stroke directly towards the object ball without a foul occurring, except, if a push stroke occurs. To gently lay the cue tip against the cue ball and then stroke forward would be a foul. This is pointed out in DCC OP rules.

This is important for OP stack play when the cue ball is frozen to an object ball and the player uses an illegal push stroke to bury the cue ball within the stack. Based upon your ability, then to avoid this foul gently tap on an angle to the object ball.

Thanks Carla!
Whitey

 

[NH Steve]

Carla,
When I was just first starting out, I asked Butch (owner of the Palace in Bellflower, "what is the ruling if you disturb a ball and shoot". He explained how Hustler's play this; "if you disturb a ball and continue to shoot it is a foul, but if you stop and let your opponent know and restore the ball, then it is not a foul". This was his and the house rule of the Palace. Note; this house rule is 1970 way prior to Cue Ball Fouls Only.

Rule writers in their depictions of what is a legal shot make an opening fatal mistake, for they first do not recognize that a legal shot is a shot that does not result in a foul, and that no shot can be predetermined as a foul, but can only be determined as a foul by the results of the shot.

This above statement helps to eliminate the myth's plaguing the pool world. Like, it is an automatic foul if you shoot that shot!

Professional pool players can play a clean game of All Ball Fouls, but at every level of play there are those that will call a contact foul that did not happen, or a ticky tack that so subtle the shooter is totally unaware, so Cue Ball Foul Only is a way to overcome this.

To answer your question; it is not an automatic foul to disturb a ball that you are shooting over. But, if it can be detected that the disturbed ball was contacted and it in turn contacted the cue ball, (there would be an associated "click" sound of the balls contacting each other), then yes it is a foul. Of course if the object ball is frozen to the cue and as a result of the shot the object ball moves forward, then yes that would be an indicator that a foul occurred.

Double Hits; there 3 types of double hits.
1. the cue ball contacts the object ball twice, this produces a double click sound, This happens often on close proximity shot when shooting more directly towards the object ball. The use of either inside or outside english helps to avoid this.
2. the cue ball contacts the object once, but the cue stick recontacts the cue ball, this produces a click and then a thud sound. Hard to judge but knowing the principles of tangent lines helps. This foul occurs on close proximity shots when the angle of the cut is not enough to avoid recontacting the cue ball once again. The use of inside english on these shots helps greatly to avoid the foul!
3. when the cue ball contacts the object ball and then the object ball recontacts the cue. This happens often when shooting a close proximity shot on an angle while using outside english. Again, use inside english to avoid this foul.

Push Stroke: is when the cue ball rides (stays in contact) the cue tip as the stroke goes forward. This can happen before contacting the object ball (a little know phenomena), or after contacting the object ball.
Therefore, when the cue ball is frozen to an object ball it is legal to stroke directly towards the object ball without a foul occurring, except, if a push stroke occurs. To gently lay the cue tip against the cue ball and then stroke forward would be a foul. This is pointed out in DCC OP rules.

This is important for OP stack play when the cue ball is frozen to an object ball and the player uses an illegal push stroke to bury the cue ball within the stack. Based upon your ability, then to avoid this foul gently tap on an angle to the object ball.

Thanks Carla!
Whitey

Nice and thorough explanation, thank you Dennis!

 

[catkins]

I played a guy who woudl consistantly pull the obstructing ball back before his final stroke through the cue bal lI called it a foul as it was clearly done to allow a better hit on the cue ball